Autonomism in the UK

[treelover]

All i know is in Italy n the 70's the autonomous movement around Negri, etc, did some very good stuff, Fiat strikes, etc

 

[mk12]

I agree with treelover. which can hardly be compared to the "autonomous zones" at the ESF, for example.

 

[butchersapron]

I agree with treelover. which can hardly be compared to the "autonomous zones" at the ESF, for example.

I agree that alot of interesting stuff happened, a lot of new perspectives opened up - but just on the 'autonomists' and fiat, i agree with Sergio Bologana's criticisms of Negri, of Portere Operaio and of the 'organised autonomy' at the time is that they actually abandoned the fiat workers and that part of the w/c that was still in the factories - they left them to the stalinists and the bosses and the end result of that was the massive political sackings in the late 70s early 80s that Revelli wrote about -they swung from a position that concentrated almost wholly on the manual w/c in the period of 'mass vanguards' to one that denied that same worker any importance or significance a few years down the road - a total misunderstanding of the material conditions that existed and of how capital would soon be forced to respond to the decade long wave of attacks on its structures that the italian w/c had engaged in. A really interesting period, but one that needs to be viewed with a critical eye if lessons are to be learnt and mistakes not to be reapeated.

 

[mk12]

that's almost word for word what steve wright said in his book if i remember correctly.

 

[butchersapron]

Yep, Steve takes that view as well, and he's not very keen on the contemporary Negri and iirc sees his 'new' postions as developing out of his isolation from a real-life w/c social movement that's grappling with real-life problems - his isolation from those elements and processes that drove his important work in the 60s and 70s bascially. Again, i think i agree with that criticism. There's also the question of the massive dollop of technological determinism and susbtituting an (abstract) minority tendency for univeral conditions. i.e There are still more lorry drivers than there are IT wokers in the US etc

 

[The Black Hand]

I agree that alot of interesting stuff happened, a lot of new perspectives opened up - but just on the 'autonomists' and fiat, i agree with Sergio Bologana's criticisms of Negri, of Portere Operaio and of the 'organised autonomy' at the time is that they actually abandoned the fiat workers and that part of the w/c that was still in the factories - they left them to the stalinists and the bosses and the end result of that was the massive political sackings in the late 70s early 80s that Revelli wrote about -they swung from a position that concentrated almost wholly on the manual w/c in the period of 'mass vanguards' to one that denied that same worker any importance or significance a few years down the road - a total misunderstanding of the material conditions that existed and of how capital would soon be forced to respond to the decade long wave of attacks on its structures that the italian w/c had engaged in. A really interesting period, but one that needs to be viewed with a critical eye if lessons are to be learnt and mistakes not to be reapeated.

I think it is a mistake to attribute any contribution to the sackings by Negri or his fellow travellers. Indeed, their politics moved on, although I would like to know whether those workers who were left asked for any 'help' from Negri and others. Of course there are material conditions all over the place, the point is engaging in a meaningful way in the areas that you are concerned with.

The world, and people, change, and to argue that things 'may have been different' if they had hung around in the factories (a hoplessly utopian position/rewriting of history, similar to what Trots do) actually goes against what we know of economic restructuring. Which saw manual workers made redundant in the West, so that cheaper labour could be employed elsewhere.

 

[The Black Hand]

Unnecessary double post eliminated

 

[The Black Hand]

Yep, Steve takes that view as well, and he's not very keen on the contemporary Negri and iirc sees his 'new' postions as developing out of his isolation from a real-life w/c social movement that's grappling with real-life problems - his isolation from those elements and processes that drove his important work in the 60s and 70s bascially. Again, i think i agree with that criticism. There's also the question of the massive dollop of technological determinism and [I]susbtituting an (abstract) minority tendency for univeral conditions[/I]. i.e There are still more lorry drivers than there are IT wokers in the US etc

The bit above I put in bold is a misrepresentation of Negri. There certainly isn't any determinism in his position as far as I can see, indeed the concept of the 'multitude' is very fluid. What he did say was that there isn't a sphere of work which does not depend on immaterial workers - the ideas workers, and this creative section is the growing tendency (as more of the world economy becomes computer literate and as computers spread).

 

[butchersapron]

I think it is a mistake to attribute any contribution to the sackings by Negri or his fellow travellers. Indeed, their politics moved on, although I would like to know whether those workers who were left asked for any 'help' from Negri and others. Of course there are material conditions all over the place, the point is engaging in a meaningful way in the areas that you are concerned with.

The world, and people, change, and to argue that things 'may have been different' if they had hung around in the factories (a hoplessly utopian position/rewriting of history, similar to what Trots do) actually goes against what we know of economic restructuring. Which saw manual workers made redundant in the West, so that cheaper labour could be employed elsewhere.

You seem to have misunderstood the point that i was making here and that people like Bologna made at the very time. Recognising that conditions have changed doesn't mean that you abandon that part of the w/c still in the factories - widening the focus should not equal cutting out part of the picture. This is eactly the swinging from one pole to the other that proved so dangerous at the time - and to defend an approach that substantially contributed to a series of shaterring defeats is to wish to replay those events in the exact same way and with the exact same result all over again.

Moving from the mass worker to the social work should not have entailed the rejection of the still existing mass workers with the consequent ceding of the factorey committees to the PCI/CGIL who then wenrt on to help impose the massive restructuring that took place in the late 70s and 80s and mediate any struggle against them - that's poltical suicide, (as now widely recognised by many of the participants). In fact, as Bologna argued at the time, this period marked the entry of the social worker into mass work rather than the death of the mass worker (see the FIAT material) rather than a glib smooth stagist transition from one period into another.

 

[butchersapron]

The bit above I put in bold is a misrepresentation of Negri. There certainly isn't any determinism in his position as far as I can see, indeed the concept of the 'multitude' is very fluid. What he did say was that there isn't a sphere of work which does not depend on immaterial workers - the ideas workers, and this creative section is the growing tendency (as more of the world economy becomes computer literate and as computers spread).

No, it's a pretty common criticism one that he's actually took on board and attempted to deal with in his book multitude. See his use of 'tendency' as a key analytical and organising concept (and one clearly derived from his ealier leninism) whereby those involved with the areas of work with the highest organic composition, who work with and develop the latest technology hegomonise the political terrain of the global working class struggle despite being an absolute minority and heavily concentrated in a few privileged areas and all by virtue of the 'tendency' that capitalism has to spread and develop this from of work accross the board - they have beaten out the path that all others must go down. It's the old hegemony of the mass worker over all others struggles updated and put into techno-jargo with a different new subject - indeed he seems to come up with a new subject playing the same role and with the same political characteristics over and over.

 

[biff curtains]

I stayed with some autonomists in Germany during the G8. At least that's what they called themselves, they were members of the 'Interventionist Left'.

As for Turbulance, I tried to read it... it had some decent articles but didn't say anything that was new to me.

 

[butchersapron]

Yep, there's a slightly different 'autonomist' tradition in existence over there with a lot of important differences from both the classical autonomists and the newer types too.

 

[treelover]

I imagine they were quite young, early twenties?

I stayed with some autonomists in Germany during the G8. At least that's what they called themselves, they were members of the 'Interventionist Left'.

 

[The Black Hand]

No, it's a pretty common criticism one that he's actually took on board and attempted to deal with in his book multitude. See his use of 'tendency' as a key analytical and organising concept (and one clearly derived from his ealier leninism) whereby those involved with the areas of work with the highest organic composition, who work with and develop the latest technology hegomonise the political terrain of the global working class struggle despite being an absolute minority and heavily concentrated in a few privileged areas and all by virtue of the 'tendency' that capitalism has to spread and develop this from of work accross the board - they have beaten out the path that all others must go down. It's the old hegemony of the mass worker over all others struggles updated and put into techno-jargo with a different new subject - indeed he seems to come up with a new subject playing the same role and with the same political characteristics over and over.

Well we disagree don't we There is an alternative presentation, and that would be that ideas workers are linked with the breakdown of virtually all old pre globalisation categories - such as 'local', 'outsider' etc. Negri is right to say that the issue now is not mediation (and yours is a sophisticated mediation position) but revolution now. This isn't saying that all must follow down one alley, the multitude is an anti Leninist concept. It simply isn't possible to homogonise class consciousness anymore. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Negri has been saying.

 

[The Black Hand]

You seem to have misunderstood the point that i was making here and that people like Bologna made at the very time. Recognising that conditions have changed doesn't mean that you abandon that part of the w/c still in the factories - widening the focus should not equal cutting out part of the picture. This is eactly the swinging from one pole to the other that proved so dangerous at the time - and to defend an approach that substantially contributed to a series of shaterring defeats is to wish to replay those events in the exact same way and with the exact same result all over again.

Moving from the mass worker to the social work should not have entailed the rejection of the still existing mass workers with the consequent ceding of the factorey committees to the PCI/CGIL who then wenrt on to help impose the massive restructuring that took place in the late 70s and 80s and mediate any struggle against them - that's poltical suicide, (as now widely recognised by many of the participants). In fact, as Bologna argued at the time, this period marked the entry of the social worker into mass work rather than the death of the mass worker (see the FIAT material) rather than a glib smooth stagist transition from one period into another.

No, I just disagree that people should be expected to remain where they were rather than move on. It wasn't swinging, they just changed their priorities - such is life. I am not defending them blindly, I am critising utopian theorising by you which says that things could have been better. Rubbish. This form of 'we know better' crap has been the Trot/Leninist approach for way too long, and you know it. You can say that things 'may have been different', but we do not know that, they could have been better or worse. That is way different from effectively blaming them. What they achieved or not in their chosen new arena is I think all you can honestly have an analysis upon, not 'what might have happenened'. That approach is moralist, anti materialist, utopian shite, etc...

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

I thought it was somethign about saying no to cars.

 

[butchersapron]

What have you just said attica? What was the content of that post? What points did it make in response to my posts?

 

[butchersapron]

Well we disagree don't we There is an alternative presentation, and that would be that ideas workers are linked with the breakdown of virtually all old pre globalisation categories - such as 'local', 'outsider' etc. Negri is right to say that the issue now is not mediation (and yours is a sophisticated mediation position) but revolution now. This isn't saying that all must follow down one alley, the multitude is an anti Leninist concept. It simply isn't possible to homogonise class consciousness anymore. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Negri has been saying.

No attica, your new found interest in Negri is seriously lacking. I didn't mention homogenisation of class consciousness (and that you're still operating on an archaic consciousnes model that itself has its roots in 2nd international kautskyism and leninism is itself revealing) i was referring to the forms of political (self) organisation that Negri sees as emanating from the conditions of a tiny section of the global w/c and that is tendentially constructing the grund on which all future struggles must constitute themselves.

This is not some left-field interpretation held only by me - it's a standard mainstream criticism from people like Nick Dyer-Witherford, from Steve wright, from George Caffentzis, from Sergio Bologna from people who are familiar with the traditions and the developements of this current of thought (participants even) - they've all spotted the path that Negri has taken to where he is today and the continuities of that position with the leninism of his younger days and the leninism of his later mid-period too) - crudely - leading sector, consciousness determined by state of technology in their enterprise, political recomposition that takes place on the basis of these first two, then cirtculated by that group to all others etc etc. NDW goes so far as to suggest that his analysis offers a form of 'cyber-leninsm and i think that's pretty close.

 

[chilango]

Did AK ever publish that "Autonomist Reader" they were promising a few years back?

Can't really be bothered trawling through too much arcane language, but used to like reading this stuff....

(though these days i'm more likely to follow Camatte into the forest! )

 

[butchersapron]

They did put out an edition of the old semiotext(e) reader but i think it was only really distributed in the US. An interesting collection but from that weird period where a lot of the orignal 'autonomists' (just using that phrase for ease here) were first getting into french style pomo and post-structuralism at the same time as they were cut off from their social base in the italian w/c and so it's shot through with a odd mix of old-style operaisomo and newer (to that tradition anyway) stuff. There was another collection a few years down the line called Radical thought in Italy which showed that the latter stuff had pretty much taken over by the mid-late 80s - still very interesting ideas even if you could tell they were not coming from anything like the same basis or connections as the earlier stuff.

 

[zenie]

I stayed with some autonomists in Germany during the G8. At least that's what they called themselves, they were members of the 'Interventionist Left'.

They also didn't sit quibbling on an internet forum they actually got off their fuckin arses and did something

 

[chilango]

They did put out an edition of the old semiotext(e) reader but i think it was only really distributed in the US. An interesting collection but from that weird period where a lot of the orignal 'autonomists' (just using that phrase for ease here) were first getting into french style pomo and post-structuralism at the same time as they were cut off from their social base in the italian w/c and so it's shot through with a odd mix of old-style operaisomo and newer (to that tradition anyway) stuff. There was another collection a few years down the line called Radical thought in Italy which showed that the latter stuff had pretty much taken over by the mid-late 80s - still very interesting ideas even if you could tell they were not coming from anything like the same basis or connections as the earlier stuff.

What was the title?

Used to have a copy of a semiotext(e) book by Negri and Guatari (sp.?). God it was awful.

But then did you ever read "Hatred of Capitalism" the semiotext(e) reader? *shudders*

Personally I prefered the Midnight Notes stuff (easy to understand, no?)

 

[butchersapron]

What was the title?

Used to have a copy of a semiotext(e) book by Negri and Guatari (sp.?). God it was awful.

But then did you ever read "Hatred of Capitalism" the semiotext(e) reader? *shudders*

Personally I prefered the Midnight Notes stuff (easy to understand, no?)

It was called Italy:autonomia: post political politics.

Yep, read that one, not a very succesful meeting of minds - slap bang in the middle of that weird period i mentioned. Yep, that Hatred of Capitalism wasn't very good either, (see alos their one on germania).

M Notes have the advantage of writing directly in english i suppose, but i think their stuff is also relatively jargon light compared to Negri and others without losing much of the depth or complexity to begin . And much more directly political.

 

[biff curtains]

I imagine they were quite young, early twenties?

No actually late thirties, nice large apartment, two cars and two motorbikes and a kid on the way.

 

[The Black Hand]

No attica, your new found interest in Negri is seriously lacking. I didn't mention homogenisation of class consciousness (and that you're still operating on an archaic consciousnes model that itself has its roots in 2nd international kautskyism and leninism is itself revealing) i was referring to the forms of political (self) organisation that Negri sees as emanating from the conditions of a tiny section of the global w/c and that is tendentially constructing the grund on which all future struggles must constitute themselves.

This is not some left-field interpretation held only by me - it's a standard mainstream criticism from people like Nick Dyer-Witherford, from Steve wright, from George Caffentzis, from Sergio Bologna from people who are familiar with the traditions and the developements of this current of thought (participants even) - they've all spotted the path that Negri has taken to where he is today and the continuities of that position with the leninism of his younger days and the leninism of his later mid-period too) - crudely - leading sector, consciousness determined by state of technology in their enterprise, political recomposition that takes place on the basis of these first two, then cirtculated by that group to all others etc etc. NDW goes so far as to suggest that his analysis offers a form of 'cyber-leninsm and i think that's pretty close.

What did you say - looks like copied bollox to me. Get a mind of your own for a change.

I do not care what you say is what, I am happy with what I have said thanks, it's a different position to the one you are forwarding.

That stuff you wrote about class consciousness/ 2nd international is bullshit, pure and unadulterated, and you do not know what these concepts mean and you certainly do not know how to apply them.

So you're a cyber - stalinist, so what?

 

[The Black Hand]

No attica, your new found interest in Negri is seriously lacking.

Hahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahaha

And it shows your elitism oh so very well...

For the public, I remember reading Negri circa 1990! There was some dishy Italians around the Hackney anarcho poll tax scene at the time too

Have you read Patrick Cunninghams contribution to Autonomist analysis btw? Doubt it.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes of course i've read his work on autonomia and the future at our backs. I can assure you that you won't win any pissing contests as to who has read what in this area. It's Patrick Cunninghame btw.

 

[The Black Hand]

Applied Autonomism in British conditions

I asked Sivanandan to speak this year at the Anarchist bookfair in a meeting to be organised by moi, and I am seriously sorry to hear that he is not well enough. Damn. Back to the drawing board.

 

[The Black Hand]

Yes of course i've read his work on autonomia and the future at our backs. I can assure you that you won't win any pissing contests as to who has read what in this area. It's Patrick Cunninghame btw.

Thats Pat 'Gun' Cunningham isn't it

 

[The Black Hand]

Yes of course i've read his work on autonomia and the future at our backs. I can assure you that you won't win any pissing contests as to who has read what in this area. It's Patrick Cunninghame btw.

Also what's the fucking point in reading it all if you're never going to write anything/have an original idea of your own. Looks like you're just a 'know-it-all fetishist' who is gathering writing for no apparent reason.