Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support

[geminisnake]

Well, looks like it's time for me to start going into panic mode. Opened the post to find a letter saying to expect a phone call within 2 weeks re: assessment for ESA

I think the cnuts deliberatley send them to arrive on Saturday I got the letter a few weeks ago(Sat), then last week I got a phone call(Sat am), not had the form yet, maybe that's next Saturday??

 

[Frankie Jack]

Via Black Triangle.

Dear Friends, FURTHER to our motion passed by our Scottish GP's Conference calling for an end to the DWP Atos Work Capability Assessments with IMMEDIATE EFFECT Black Triangle has ensured that the same motion will be debated at the UK LMC Conference in Liverpool on 23rd May at 11.40 a.m.

The motion was carried almost unanimously (one objection and a handful of abstentions) at Scottish LMC conference at Clydebank.

If this passes at Liverpool it will become official BMA policy and will hold positive implications for our fight to prevent PIP assessments following the same format in the wake of the abolition of DLA.

The GMC will be forced to institute a full investigation and under an obligation to take action to halt the assessments by revoking "Approved Medical Status" to testing centres. The motions were submitted by the Scottish LMC Conference and Hampshire and Isle of Wight LMC. Motions 103 & 103a can be viewed here:

http://www.bma.org.uk/images/lmcconfagenda2012_tcm41-212632.pdf
Page 41...

MEDICAL CERTIFICATES AND REPORTS 11.40
* 103 HAMPSHIRE AND ISLE OF WIGHT: That conference, in respect of work capability assessments (WCA) as performed
by ATOS Healthcare, believes that the:
(i) inadequate computer based assessments that are used have little regard to the nature or complexity of the needs of long term sick and disabled persons
(ii) WCA should end with immediate effect and be replaced with a rigorous and safe system that does not cause
avoidable harm to some of the weakest and most vulnerable in society.
103a SCOTTISH CONFERENCE OF LMCs: That conference, in respect of work capability assessments (WCA) as performed by ATOS Healthcare, believes that:
(i) the inadequate computer based assessments that are used have little regard to the nature or complexity of the needs of long term sick and disabled persons
(ii) the WCA should end with immediate effect and be replaced with a rigorous and safe system that does not cause avoidable harm to some of the weakest and most vulnerable in society.

 

[Frankie Jack]

I think the cnuts deliberatley send them to arrive on Saturday I got the letter a few weeks ago(Sat), then last week I got a phone call(Sat am), not had the form yet, maybe that's next Saturday??

Aye Gem.. Seems to be a set Saturday 'fuck your weekend right off' delivery day of all their bullshit.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Makes no sense.
Period.
But then Chris Grayling thinks that people with mental health problems ("a bit depressed") just need a pat on the head and some work to "set them on the right path"

Well it's not so much that, but more a case of figuring out how to answer the questions. There's no mental health problems, just memory loss, so a lot of the questions, I could answer "yes" to, but only because they're in long term memory before brain injury, whereas others would depend on whether it was something new to learn since brain injury, and also whether it's visual or aural, if that makes sense. For instance, the setting an alarm clock question. If it was one with hands, he'd probably be able to do it because he used to have one with hands, whereas if it was with buttons, he'd probably get confused. However, because his visual memory is better, if they showed him how to do it and then immediately got him to do it, he may be able to do it, but he might not be able to do it the next day.

Familiar routes. Yes, he can go to the shops five minutes away as they're in his long-term memory. He would also know his way to hospital on the bus, but again, that's because King's College is in his long-term memory, not because he goes there a few times a month, but once there, he wouldn't know where he was going. When his consultant asks him how he is and if there's anything to report, then he'll often say he doesn't think so (which is completely wrong), but that's only because he can't remember that he may have had some severe side-effects from medication.

I don't understand the wording in the B&W document. Either they've left a word out, badly worded it, or I'm thick.

This is the bit I don't understand. I'm not actually sure if I should be cutting and pasting from the B&W website?

As we’ve already explained, the limited capability for work assessment is a points based

system for assessing your ability to carry out various activities. If you score enough points
under this assessment you will be eligible to join the work-related activity group (WRAG).
The assessment is made up of a physical health test and a ‘mental, cognitive and intellectual
function’ test.

Claimants who are placed in the support group have to pass this assessment and then a
further one, the limited capability for work-related activity assessment.

The majority of people who get into the work-related activity group (WRAG) do so by scoring
15 points or more in the assessment. But there are actually three ways of passing this test
and two do not involve points.

Is the above saying, that if you score enough points, then you should be working?

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I think the cnuts deliberatley send them to arrive on Saturday I got the letter a few weeks ago(Sat), then last week I got a phone call(Sat am), not had the form yet, maybe that's next Saturday??

My brain's aching already

 

[laptop]

Is the above saying, that if you score enough points, then you should be working?

Not read the whole thing. But that has the smell of Newspeak - trying to convince you that forcing you to work is a "promotion" - "eligible for" and so forth.

Work-Related Activity Group

If you are placed in the Work-Related Activity Group, you will be expected to take part in work-focused interviews with your personal adviser. You will get support to help you prepare for suitable work.
In return, you will receive a work-related activity component in addition to your basic rate.
Customers are not required to attend the Work-Focused Interview (WFI) until it’s been confirmed that they’ve been placed in the Work-Related Activity Group.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTa...CreditsAndOtherSupport/Illorinjured/DG_171894

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Things like leaving the gas on and not lighting it or not turning the gas off and putting empty pans back on the ring don't count either. You need to burn the house down before it does or at least that's the impression I got at my tribunal.

Well, it's hard for any of that apply to him as the only electrical things he touches are the kettle, tv and toaster. He knows (because it's now been ingrained into his memory) that he's not supposed to touch the cooker.

I notice there's a bit about preparing food and they now include cold food, not just hot, so yes, he could make himself a sandwich, but if I wasn't there to check the dates on the ham etc. he'd use it without checking date as he has no idea what the date is in the first place. The only way he has an idea of the date is by looking at the tv page, and that could be open on the wrong day, but because it's a weekly magazine, at least he has an idea (unless he hasn't chucked out a previous week's magazine )

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Not read the whole thing. But that has the smell of Newspeak - trying to convince you that forcing you to work is a "promotion" - "eligible for" and so forth.

but I'm reading it that if you get more than 15 points, you're eligible for WRAG. Surely the more points you get, the more difficulty you are having?

 

[ViolentPanda]

but I'm reading it that if you get more than 15 points, you're eligible for WRAG. Surely the more points you get, the more difficulty you are having?

Yes. You need at least 15 points to be put in the WRAG group. Less and you're expected to fuck off and get a job. More and there's a possibility of being allocated to the "top" group, where they (supposedly) leave you the fuck alone.
Hope that makes things clearer.

 

[equationgirl]

Makes no sense.
Period.
But then Chris Grayling thinks that people with mental health problems ("a bit depressed") just need a pat on the head and some work to "set them on the right path"

I'm waiting for him to come out with 'just pull themselves together and knuckle down to some hard graft'. Can't be long now. Again, a bit rich considering the easy life most government ministers get - vote for your own pay rise, anyone?

The knobend.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Yes. You need at least 15 points to be put in the WRAG group. Less and you're expected to fuck off and get a job. More and there's a possibility of being allocated to the "top" group, where they (supposedly) leave you the fuck alone.
Hope that makes things clearer.

Not really.

Can you explain the last paragraph to me then

As we’ve already explained, the limited capability for work assessment is a points based
system for assessing your ability to carry out various activities. If you score enough points
under this assessment you will be eligible to join the work-related activity group (WRAG).

The assessment is made up of a physical health test and a ‘mental, cognitive and intellectual
function’ test.

Claimants who are placed in the support group have to pass this assessment and then a
further one, the limited capability for work-related activity assessment.

The majority of people who get into the work-related activity group (WRAG) do so by scoring
15 points or more in the assessment. But there are actually three ways of passing this test
and two do not involve points.

Furthermore, on the mental assessment, it says:

The three ways
1. You can be exempt from the assessment and therefore not need to show that you
score enough points.

2. You can score 15 or more points in the assessment.

3. You can fail to score enough points but be covered by the exceptional circumstances
regulations.

but...

Unfortunately, there are no grounds on which you can be exempted solely because of a
mental health condition or learning difficulties, no matter how severe. All the grounds relate
primarily to physical health conditions. They deal with issues such as terminal illness or
contact with a notifiable disease. However, if you are having inpatient treatment or are in
rehab for drug or alcohol addiction you may also be treated as having limited capability for
work, see below.

and

If you are not exempt from the limited capability for work-related activity assessment, the
next question is whether any of the descriptors in the assessment apply to you.

If any one of the descriptors below applies for the majority of the time or for the majority of
the times that you attempt it, then you will be eligible for the support group. Any aid,
appliance or prosthesis that you normally use will be taken into account when assessing you.
Almost all of these descriptors are 15 point descriptors from the assessment for the workrelated
activity group, so we deal with them in great detail as we go through filling in the
ESA50 form with you. (Though please note that not every 15 point descriptor will get you
into the support group, we explain which do and which don’t as we take you through the
form).

The only exceptions in relation to mental health and learning difficulties are:
15. Conveying food or drink to the mouth.
16. Chewing or swallowing food or drink.

Neither of these activities appear in the assessment

It's doing my fucking brain in!

Each time I think I understand it, I come across something else and I just can't remember the 76 pages of info that B&W has supplied purely on mental health

 

[equationgirl]

This might help minnie - it's a list of who gets called to assessment based on health conditions:

http://thefullfacts.com/esa/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=478

Also this thread from the same forum may help - if you register you can get their guide to filling out the form:

http://thefullfacts.com/esa/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1282

 

[yardbird]

I'm gonna check my form (photocopy) to see what I said so as to be totally left alone.
Back after the motor racing.

 

[laptop]

It's doing my fucking brain in!

Mine too, clearly. Beg pardon.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

This might help minnie - it's a list of who gets called to assessment based on health conditions:

http://thefullfacts.com/esa/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=478

Also this thread from the same forum may help - if you register you can get their guide to filling out the form:

http://thefullfacts.com/esa/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1282

My head's thumping. I just don't seem to be able to read and take anything in.

> is greater than isn't it?

So anyone older than 75 isn't going to be called in

Age <12 years

Both Blind and Deaf
Registered Blind (needs to be seen in own environment)
Cases accepted under the Special Rules defining Terminal illness.
Alzheimers
Amputation of both legs
Asperger's
Autistic Spectrum Disorder / Autism
Cerebral Palsy
Dementia
Hemiplegia
Huntingdon's Chorea
Korsakoffs Psychosis
Macmillan Nurse attending.
Motor Neurone Disease
On oxygen
Paraplegia
Quadraplegia
Renal Dialysis
Severe Mental Impairment
Severe Learning Difficulty
Spastic Diplegia
Tetraplegia
Total Parenteral Nutrition
Unstable Angina
Wernicke's Encephalopathy

Isn't <12 years = under 12 years of age?

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

This might help minnie - it's a list of who gets called to assessment based on health conditions:

http://thefullfacts.com/esa/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=478

Also this thread from the same forum may help - if you register you can get their guide to filling out the form:

http://thefullfacts.com/esa/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1282

Does the fullfacts not have the same advice as B&W for filling out the form?

Many thanks for links btw

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Will have a quick look at the full facts thing as I notice post is about traumatic brain injury, but am going to have to leave it for now as I've been looking at shit for over 3 hours now. Going off to my sister's for tea and more puppy fun

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Will have a quick look at the full facts thing as I notice post is about traumatic brain injury, but am going to have to leave it for now as I've been looking at shit for over 3 hours now. Going off to my sister's for tea and more puppy fun

That tbi post wasn't very helpful, although someone did provide Headway link which I always forget about which can help me with the wording and describing him when filling out forms e.g.

• The hippocampus, on the inner surface of the temporal lobe, is an important structure for memory function and it is sensitive to anoxic injury. Memory problems are very common following cerebral anoxia and they may be quite severe.
• Disturbances of speech and language function may occur because of damage to areas of the brain involved in the production and articulation of speech, finding the right words and understanding language. Spoken and written communication may both be affected.
• Damage to the frontal lobes may lead to disturbances in executive function - the ability to think and reason, to synthesize and integrate complex information and make considered judgements and decisions about what to do in a particular situation. These skills underlie the ability to plan for the future in a sensible way, as well as to function effectively in work and social settings.
• Frontal lobe injury may produce changes in personality, including irritability, poor tolerance of frustration, impulsiveness and impairments in social perception and conduct. There may be apathy and lack of insight, as well as intermittent agitation and mood swings, or more sustained periods of depression. These changes may slow the progress of rehabilitation and make it difficult to achieve a successful return home.

Will be able to jiggle that about a bit so it doesn't sound so professional and like I've plagiarised it from Headway

 

[equationgirl]

Does the fullfacts not have the same advice as B&W for filling out the form?

Many thanks for links btw

Yes, your interpretation of the maths was correct - no-one older than 75 or younger than 12 will be called for assessment. I'm not sure if the fullfacts will have the same advice - I suspect it does. Both are comprehensive from my reading of them and very helpful and reassuring for those going through this process.

Will continue to see if I can find stuff to help.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Yes, your interpretation of the maths was correct - no-one older than 75 or younger than 12 will be called for assessment. I'm not sure if the fullfacts will have the same advice - I suspect it does. Both are comprehensive from my reading of them and very helpful and reassuring for those going through this process.

Will continue to see if I can find stuff to help.

I misread the younger than 12 as being

anyone younger than 12 with the following conditions:

Both Blind and Deaf
Registered Blind (needs to be seen in own environment)
Cases accepted under the Special Rules defining Terminal illness.
Alzheimers
Amputation of both legs
Asperger's
Autistic Spectrum Disorder / Autism
Cerebral Palsy
Dementia
Hemiplegia
Huntingdon's Chorea
Korsakoffs Psychosis
Macmillan Nurse attending.
Motor Neurone Disease
On oxygen
Paraplegia
Quadraplegia
Renal Dialysis
Severe Mental Impairment
Severe Learning Difficulty
Spastic Diplegia
Tetraplegia
Total Parenteral Nutrition
Unstable Angina
Wernicke's Encephalopathy

and was wondering how anyone under 12 could have half of those conditions

Not really sure he'd be classed as having any of the above

Many thanks for links though

 

[equationgirl]

I misread the younger than 12 as being

anyone younger than 12 with the following conditions:

Both Blind and Deaf
Registered Blind (needs to be seen in own environment)
Cases accepted under the Special Rules defining Terminal illness.
Alzheimers
Amputation of both legs
Asperger's
Autistic Spectrum Disorder / Autism
Cerebral Palsy
Dementia
Hemiplegia
Huntingdon's Chorea
Korsakoffs Psychosis
Macmillan Nurse attending.
Motor Neurone Disease
On oxygen
Paraplegia
Quadraplegia
Renal Dialysis
Severe Mental Impairment
Severe Learning Difficulty
Spastic Diplegia
Tetraplegia
Total Parenteral Nutrition
Unstable Angina
Wernicke's Encephalopathy

and was wondering how anyone under 12 could have half of those conditions

Not really sure he'd be classed as having any of the above

Many thanks for links though

Well, I think he may fall in the next list which recommends medical advice be sought on whether or not to call the claimant for assessment.

My concern is that he can't go by himself as even he manages to remember where he's going (I think that unlikely based on what you've told me) he won't remember why he's there and to wait to be seen. Plus, if he doesn't remember to tell his consultant things, he's not going to remember to tell the atos person anything. I just don't see what an assessment could possibly tell atos.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Well, I think he may fall in the next list which recommends medical advice be sought on whether or not to call the claimant for assessment.

My concern is that he can't go by himself as even he manages to remember where he's going (I think that unlikely based on what you've told me) he won't remember why he's there and to wait to be seen. Plus, if he doesn't remember to tell his consultant things, he's not going to remember to tell the atos person anything. I just don't see what an assessment could possibly tell atos.

There's no way he'd know how to get there himself or know why he's there.

I'm thinking maybe I should make an appointment with his neuropsychiatrist ahead of his scheduled July appointment, so I can get some better advice on how to explain his condition as it's difficult to explain it on forms without having to write a bloody essay in response to each question. Maybe with more medical terminonolgy/psychiatry terms chucked in, they'll be better able to understand his condition, although on the other hand, will the computer software?!

 

[equationgirl]

There's no way he'd know how to get there himself or know why he's there.

I'm thinking maybe I should make an appointment with his neuropsychiatrist ahead of his scheduled July appointment, so I can get some better advice on how to explain his condition as it's difficult to explain it on forms without having to write a bloody essay in response to each question. Maybe with more medical terminonolgy/psychiatry terms chucked in, they'll be better able to understand his condition, although on the other hand, will the computer software?!

I thinks that's a good idea, meeting with the neuro guy. I think I posted some links on neuro problems earlier, let me go look...

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I thinks that's a good idea, meeting with the neuro guy. I think I posted some links on neuro problems earlier, let me go look...

You mean the one with the tbi who was filling in their form?

Only problem is, he's got a new neuropsychiatrist who he's only met once and that was pretty brief, because they've said there's not really anything they can do for him. They've just not discharged him in case we need any help with him for hospital admissions etc. Only see them once a year now, more as a courtesy call

 

[equationgirl]

You mean the one with the tbi who was filling in their form?

Only problem is, he's got a new neuropsychiatrist who he's only met once and that was pretty brief, because they've said there's not really anything they can do for him. They've just not discharged him in case we need any help with him for hospital admissions etc. Only see them once a year now, more as a courtesy call

No it wasn't that one, it was something from the DWP advising on what to do. Still looking...

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

No it wasn't that one, it was something from the DWP advising on what to do. Still looking...

Cheers eg. I've had enough of the advice guides for a few days I think. Can't look anything else up tonight. Head's still not cleared from headache that started this morning, despite taking two paracetamols

I need easy reading now

 

[equationgirl]

No it wasn't that one, it was something from the DWP advising on what to do. Still looking...

I can't find the original link BUT I stumbled across the following one:
http://www.whywaitforever.com/dwpatosmedicalreport.html

Read the section on Breach of Contract - given the complexities of his condition, he MUST be seen by a practitioner experience in neuro disorders in order to receive a fair assessment.

 

[equationgirl]

Cheers eg. I've had enough of the advice guides for a few days I think. Can't look anything else up tonight. Head's still not cleared from headache that started this morning, despite taking two paracetamols

I need easy reading now

Nae problem, minnie, this stuff is quite heavygoing.

Incidently, the most recent link I posted contains a report as generated by the LIMA software, and contains the excellent phrase ' the patient has a mild brain tumour'

Way to go atos.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Nae problem, minnie, this stuff is quite heavygoing.

Incidently, the most recent link I posted contains a report as generated by the LIMA software, and contains the excellent phrase ' the patient has a mild brain tumour'

Way to go atos.

When all the doctors were suspended at b/f's surgery, made appointment with new doctors and discovered he was down as having dementia. The doctor said "well I'll take that off for a start". Maybe I should have told her to leave it in!

 

[equationgirl]

When all the doctors were suspended at b/f's surgery, made appointment with new doctors and discovered he was down as having dementia. The doctor said "well I'll take that off for a start". Maybe I should have told her to leave it in!

I've found the original links, the DWP have an odd way of categorising brain/head injuries. The first link gives (briefly) the types of people competent to give a report on the patient's condition:
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/.../organic-brain-disorders/sources-of-evidence/
This link gives guidance on how long benefits should be awarded for, based on the severity of the head injury)bottom table):
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/...ganic-brain-disorders/prognosis-and-duration/
This link may help you with the words to write on the form:
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/...c-brain-disorders/head-injury-intro-obd.shtml
From what you've said, most of the words in the bottom link could be used in your b/f's case.