Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support
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geminisnake
a complex mass of conflicting ideas
I've never had any problem having attitude to 'authority' figures. I think it came naturally from an early age 
Just say to yourself tonight, lots of times, don't be fooled, they are cnuts.
Just say to yourself tonight, lots of times, don't be fooled, they are cnuts.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Will somebody be with you?
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
These people are not YOUR healthcare professional, in the same way that a doctor is your GP, if you see what I mean.
Ask for their name and experience. If you want to PM me with your medical condition(s) I can check to see what the DWP guidance says regarding assessment of it. Make sure someone is with you to take notes if possible, they seem to behave better if you do.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Sorry to hear this bro. Fuck the system. I feel for u.My GP graciously wrote a letter in support of a home visit for no payment and the cunts at the DWP overruled it. I've also been informed by a neurologist that the large cyst on my brain is not causing headaches (what is?) and it is staying put. NHS cuts probably? A fun life in store for what's left of it.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
They're supposed to give you a clear 5 days warning, not just spring a visit on you the day before.
I had a DLA EMP try the same thing twice, phoning on a friday to tell me he was visting on the saturday. I'm sure you can guess my reply.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I've never had any problem having attitude to 'authority' figures. I think it came naturally from an early age
I'm much the same. I used to be quite a bit less oppositional, but I've gradually come to realise that the only way you get things done is to stand up, look them in the eye, and give back as good as you get.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
They're basically a hostile witness, working for the other side. They may tout their status as a "healthcare professional" (chiropodists are healthcare professionals, for fucks' sake!
) as an emblem of neutrality, but they're bought and paid for by the enemy - by the people who have plotted with the DWP to reduce the claimant roll, and who are costing people theirhealth and their livelihoods (and in some cases their lives).
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
He's not here yet. Tum-ti-tum. I'm quite happy to get it over with despite the short notice.
My GF's here to take notes and remind me of things I'm bound to forget.
The letter also says the dr might need to examine you. A male dr examining a female patient in her own home, and no chaperone requested. So very strange.
My GF's here to take notes and remind me of things I'm bound to forget.
The letter also says the dr might need to examine you. A male dr examining a female patient in her own home, and no chaperone requested.
So very strange.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Have they phoned to cancel? What was the explanation?
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
He turned up eventually, about 45 minutes late. I think it was OK except for a trick question - he didn't ask how far I could walk, but how long I could walk for. So I said 2-3 minutes. At a speed of a snail on weed, so that's just a few metres. But he'll probably convert that to 200 metres or whatever as if it were normal speed.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
I hope it went OK. You can ask for a copy of the Atos report generated by the LIMA software, in fact you should because it will be hilariously inaccurate due to the way the software works. It's also worth cross-checking against any answer you gave just to see how the HCP has recorded your answer (clue: it's not usually what you said).He turned up eventually, about 45 minutes late. I think it was OK except for a trick question - he didn't ask how far I could walk, but how long I could walk for. So I said 2-3 minutes. At a speed of a snail on weed, so that's just a few metres. But he'll probably convert that to 200 metres or whatever as if it were normal speed.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I've just invested in two seperate covert recording devices, on the off-chance I get called for a WCA - an audio & video-recording watch, and an audio-recording pen.
Not that I'm a suspicious, cynical and narrow-minded paranoiac, you understand!
Not that I'm a suspicious, cynical and narrow-minded paranoiac, you understand!
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
They are memory aids, are they not, given your memory problems? And it's only sensible to have two in case one doesn't work on the dayI've just invested in two seperate covert recording devices, on the off-chance I get called for a WCA - an audio & video-recording watch, and an audio-recording pen.
Not that I'm a suspicious, cynical and narrow-minded paranoiac, you understand!
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
They are memory aids, are they not, given your memory problems? And it's only sensible to have two in case one doesn't work on the day
Exactly!!
it's not like I didn't emphasise my memory problems on the form, either. As well as detailing the effects it has on my everyday ability to function, I also made clear I'd need any assessment recorded because of the memory issues, and the fact that my memory issues worsen when I'm stressed or tired.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Then I can't see how anyone could reasonably objectExactly!!
it's not like I didn't emphasise my memory problems on the form, either. As well as detailing the effects it has on my everyday ability to function, I also made clear I'd need any assessment recorded because of the memory issues, and the fact that my memory issues worsen when I'm stressed or tired.
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
We did record my assessment too, just on a phone on the shelf of the coffee table. My GF took notes too, and assessor immediately said that was OK, but they wouldn't be admissable as evidence. Rrrright. I also took photos of the notes (which records the time and date too of course) to show that we haven't made any changes.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
On the subject of recordings as evidence, the following is from http://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/2013/june/audio-recording-wca-assessments
There has been some case law recently on the admissibility of covert recordings to tribunals, in the context of employment tribunals. This link is to a case law summary on a recent case where an employee wanted 39 hours of covert recordings admitted as tribunal evidence because she said they showed that the employer wasn't truthfully reporting various meetings. The tribunal refused her application because essentially there was too much material and it hadn't been made available, however they said she should make a more focused application as some of material may be relevant. The tribunal noted that although making covert recordings was distasteful, that in itself didn't make the recording inadmissible.
http://www.manches.com/news-publications/covert-recordings-admissible-in-tribunal
So if you typed up an exact transcript of the recording and sent along with a copy of the audio file to the tribunal, it would be up to the tribunal to decide if they wanted to accept it as evidence.
There has been some case law recently on the admissibility of covert recordings to tribunals, in the context of employment tribunals. This link is to a case law summary on a recent case where an employee wanted 39 hours of covert recordings admitted as tribunal evidence because she said they showed that the employer wasn't truthfully reporting various meetings. The tribunal refused her application because essentially there was too much material and it hadn't been made available, however they said she should make a more focused application as some of material may be relevant. The tribunal noted that although making covert recordings was distasteful, that in itself didn't make the recording inadmissible.
http://www.manches.com/news-publications/covert-recordings-admissible-in-tribunal
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Which basically means the assessor is taking rubbish, in my non-legally qualified opinion.
bob420
New Member
i found some of the information from the black triangle group quite helpful when i was fighting for my benefits
also found this site helpful http://atosvictimsgroup.co.uk/
peace
Liam Byrne says Labour will sack ATOS if elected, but he is working with 'Disability Australia', Aus's recent history on benefits isn't good, this may be more about ATOS being inefficient and not getting enough back to work.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/sep/19/benefits-employment-liam-byrne
http://thefullfacts.com/esa/forum/
really really good site here
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Frankly I don't give the drippings off of a dog's cock for ANYTHING Liam Byrne says. His politics are such that any stuff like the above is just "playing the game", rather than giving a fuck about sick and disabled people being shat on.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
I requested on my ESA form that the assessment had to be recorded due to memory loss. Assessor didn't know anything about it until she opened the ESA form.Exactly!!
it's not like I didn't emphasise my memory problems on the form, either. As well as detailing the effects it has on my everyday ability to function, I also made clear I'd need any assessment recorded because of the memory issues, and the fact that my memory issues worsen when I'm stressed or tired.
She said if I wanted the assessment recording they could re-arrange the appointment for a day when other people wanted recordings so they could get the equipment and do them all together. (what's the betting the equipment wouldn't be available / broken on the day). So I took my dictaphone out of my pocket and removed the batteries and told her to get on with it while my sisters dictaphone was still running in her hand bag. nor do I, but he may be DWP Secretary in 18 months time..
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Which (among other things) will be proof that all of us who thought that it couldn't get any worse than Iain Dunked-in Shit, were very very wrong.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Excellent work agent WouldBeI requested on my ESA form that the assessment had to be recorded due to memory loss. Assessor didn't know anything about it until she opened the ESA form.
Frumious B.
Well-Known Member
Update on my research into this:
I asked the DWP by email: "I wonder if you could please let me know what amendments were made to this page in June? http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/...-medical-conditions/chronic-fatigue-syndrome/" Their answer: "I can advise that there wasn't an amendment to the actual page content - the amendment relates to general changes made by our technical people to the presentation of all the guidance in the A-Z of Medical Conditions web pages. The content of the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome guidance therefore remains unchanged."
At the benefitsandwork forum I asked whether the A to Z had formerly said that certain conditions were mandated for assessment by a doctor. The mod replied: “as far as I am aware this information has never been used in regard to what level of HCP is required to perform an ESA assessment for any given condition, this seems to be down to a couple of lists included in the contract between ATOS and the DWP, that were revealed by a Freedom of Information request some time ago”
The lists mentioned by the mod are in a DWP document called "Neurological Condition List by Practitioner Type". The document is subject to revision. People often ask for the document in a FOI request, so although the DWP never announces when it has been revised, the latest version quickly finds its way on to whatdotheyknow.com. We're now on version 5. It was supplied in this answer on June 24. Here are the lists:
I emailed the 'only for doctors' list to ATOS and asked if it was still current, and much to my surprise they confirmed that it is.
I'm certain that the DWP A to Z has never said which conditions mandate a doctor. In fact no government site has ever provided such info to the public. If it had it would have been referenced in a great many forums and blogs. There would have been no need for the many FOI requests about it. And if FOI requests had been made, the answers would have said “the DWP is not obliged to answer your question because the information is publicly accessible on the DWP site.” That's how the FOIA works.
An important point about the lists is in the intro on p.4 of the DWP doc: "The lists are not exhaustive." (Their emphasis.)
What this means in practice is that a neurological condition not on the list can still get you a real doctor for your WCA. CFS/ME has never been on the list, but some CFS/ME sufferers, including me, have had a real doctor. My medical was in August last year. I don't know why I was allocated a doctor. I haven't found any info about that part of the DWP decision process. Perhaps my CFS appeared complex because I've been diagnosed at a CFS clinic. Perhaps it's because I have several comorbid conditions. Perhaps if you mention a particular symptom on the ESA50 you get put in the 'complex neurological' pile. All I know for certain is that the people at the ATOS centre were instructed that I had to see a doctor. Maybe the answer is in a FOI request which I haven't read yet. There are so many of them....ATOS is mentioned in 400+.
I asked the DWP by email: "I wonder if you could please let me know what amendments were made to this page in June? http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/...-medical-conditions/chronic-fatigue-syndrome/" Their answer: "I can advise that there wasn't an amendment to the actual page content - the amendment relates to general changes made by our technical people to the presentation of all the guidance in the A-Z of Medical Conditions web pages. The content of the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome guidance therefore remains unchanged."
At the benefitsandwork forum I asked whether the A to Z had formerly said that certain conditions were mandated for assessment by a doctor. The mod replied: “as far as I am aware this information has never been used in regard to what level of HCP is required to perform an ESA assessment for any given condition, this seems to be down to a couple of lists included in the contract between ATOS and the DWP, that were revealed by a Freedom of Information request some time ago”
The lists mentioned by the mod are in a DWP document called "Neurological Condition List by Practitioner Type". The document is subject to revision. People often ask for the document in a FOI request, so although the DWP never announces when it has been revised, the latest version quickly finds its way on to whatdotheyknow.com. We're now on version 5. It was supplied in this answer on June 24. Here are the lists:
I emailed the 'only for doctors' list to ATOS and asked if it was still current, and much to my surprise they confirmed that it is.
I'm certain that the DWP A to Z has never said which conditions mandate a doctor. In fact no government site has ever provided such info to the public. If it had it would have been referenced in a great many forums and blogs. There would have been no need for the many FOI requests about it. And if FOI requests had been made, the answers would have said “the DWP is not obliged to answer your question because the information is publicly accessible on the DWP site.” That's how the FOIA works.
An important point about the lists is in the intro on p.4 of the DWP doc: "The lists are not exhaustive." (Their emphasis.)
What this means in practice is that a neurological condition not on the list can still get you a real doctor for your WCA. CFS/ME has never been on the list, but some CFS/ME sufferers, including me, have had a real doctor. My medical was in August last year. I don't know why I was allocated a doctor. I haven't found any info about that part of the DWP decision process. Perhaps my CFS appeared complex because I've been diagnosed at a CFS clinic. Perhaps it's because I have several comorbid conditions. Perhaps if you mention a particular symptom on the ESA50 you get put in the 'complex neurological' pile. All I know for certain is that the people at the ATOS centre were instructed that I had to see a doctor. Maybe the answer is in a FOI request which I haven't read yet. There are so many of them....ATOS is mentioned in 400+.
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