Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador embassy, London
- Thread starter ATOMIC SUPLEX
- Start date
elbows
Well-Known Member
Do you really think ideological and political principals actually survive such a scenario?
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
That's the whole point; he'd be extradited from Sweden to the US and banged up for the rest of his natural - word is a Grand Jury has already completed the formalities in secret session.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
yes, because have to keep focussed on what the political and ideological priorities are.
In this instance, fighting against censorship (by the world's most powedrful nation) maqnd for free speech easily outweighs and outranks the fact that JA is a sleazeball
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
The allegation is a little more than that. And whilst the Americans might seek to get hold of him if he goes back to Sweden, that doesn't wipe out that he is accused of rape. 2 separate issues that Assange's followers have done a good job of blurring.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Except its not about censorship as such, its about accountability. Assanges behaviour completely undermine that cause.
This is no way to fight a superpower. And if you care about freedom of information then giving an unaccountable NGO the right to determine which leaks to publish and which to sit on is hardly a solid foundation to build upon.
The contents of specific leaks can be very useful for analysing the methods by which a powerful player gathers information and indulges in 'international diplomacy'. But we won't change the nature of relations between states and powerful groups simply by trying to uncensor diplomatic cables. Especially when hardly anybody seems to think their worldview was far better informed after the leaks, rather we've spend far more time discussing Assange than anything else!
By all means think about a completely different way or ordering human relationships globally so that we might actually be able to discuss all matters in an open and frank manner. But don't underestimate this challenge, especially when even small groups of relatively unpowerful people, dealing with issues that do not have giant ramifications, find it necessary to run to their privacy shelters when sensitive matters need to be discussed and agreement reached. Ask any message board owner!
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Indeed.
There's no need, either, to get drawn into another childish "my enemy's enemy is my friend" routine. Even before Assange was accused of being a rapist and sex pest, he was a sleezeball with a hard-on for the free market whose principles were (to use a phrase about him I think I read on here), "these are my secrets now: give me money". He's no hero of mine.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
You're blurring. The offences on which he is indicted do not have a direct equivalent in UK Law.
Of the four allegations, the closest to what might constitute 'rape' under UK Law appears to be that while both women accept they consented to sex, neither consented to sex without a condom. I have no idea if that would even be charged in the UK, there is certainly no specific law. The offence of rape obv. also exists in Sweden and he's not indicted under that. I guess it's a distinction you may see if you want to, and won't if you don't. The Swedes obv. do see a distinction.
Max tariff under Swedish law is in the order of four years - assuming conviction where one case is his word vs. hers, and in the other ... she was asleep at the time but reckons he had sex with her without a condom. Two lesser offences, also.
If the witnesses stand up to cross-ex, maybe there's some chance of conviction but, guilty or not guilty - on a beyond all reasonable doubt burden of proof - he'd be banged up/shut up pretty much forever by the USA after his extradition.
Obv. the poss/prob of a 'Not Guily' in Sweden followed by a life in solitary in the USA is what's motivating his supporters.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
sure, I certainly didn't mean to downplay the seriousness of the allegations. I was merely pointing out what i regarded as the priority order. elbows has made a good point about how to fight for freedom of speech, though
elbows
Well-Known Member
Priorities are similar to compromises in that errors of judgement when settings them easily leads to a corruption of principals, and justification of horror. Theres no easy answer since we struggle to function and get anywhere without prioritising and compromising, but this is one of the key areas where a better world would need better systems and principals in place to deal with such things.
I really don't see this stuff as a fight for freedom of speech. I like accountability, and I like information. But to be honest I suspect a struggle on this front is not going to get to the heart of the matter, its just fighting a symptom. The underlying cause is power, what use its put to, how it is applied and its uneven distribution. And Assange, like so many other fake saviours, is more interested in harvesting power for himself than in truly diluting it down to less harmful levels.
I really don't see this stuff as a fight for freedom of speech. I like accountability, and I like information. But to be honest I suspect a struggle on this front is not going to get to the heart of the matter, its just fighting a symptom. The underlying cause is power, what use its put to, how it is applied and its uneven distribution. And Assange, like so many other fake saviours, is more interested in harvesting power for himself than in truly diluting it down to less harmful levels.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Their motivations would have been better served by attempting to maximise support. Which means fighting any attempted extradition to the USA for leak-related matters, not to Sweden for sexual ones.
Wikileaks threw away its best weapon, the moral high-ground.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
Nope. He's got zero chance once in Sweden. See the terms of the US/Sweden bi-lateral extradition treaty. Actually, don't bother; the de facto case under US law is clear - if he's not a terrorist it's espionage.
winterinmoscow
Returning Poster
Regardless of whether he'd be extradited to the US or not, I feel a little bit sorry for all the people who stood as sureties for him right now and hope he thought of that
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
Having sex with someone who is asleep IS rape under british law. and even if it wasn't, it wouldn't be right by such a long margin that quite frankly its really not worth pointing this out because if you don't understand that you shouldn't be allowed near sleeping people.
skyscraper101
0891 50 50 50
So how's he going to get out of the embassy without being nicked? Helicopter?
Would Sweden refuse his extradition if he was faced with the death penalty? or the treatment of Manning? His alleged victims in Sweden certainly deserve due process, but I can see why he'd be in fear of his life should he travel there to defend the allegations.
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
Being made an Ecuadorian diplomat and being issued with a passport stating that, thus providing diplomatic immunity?
Sweden won't extradite if the death penalty is on the table however given all the jiggery pokery that's been going on between US and Swedish right wing governments I'd say extradition to the belly of the beast is certain (it will require Cameron to sign off on it but that lickspittle wouldn't think twice) Assange is a slimy git however he doesn't deserve to be banged up in the gulag for performing essentially a public service.
Won't work,brit gov. has to O.K. diplomatic immunity.
skyscraper101
0891 50 50 50
Assange is way too high profile now to get the death penalty. I can't believe any US government would go there.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
Can't extradite if the poss of death pen - never mind Sweden, the European Court wouldn't allow it.
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
I doubt if the UK is interested in causing an incident by searching an official diplomatic car. It's a bit rude at best. I'd just throw a blanket over him and drive him to the airport.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
Nope, it may be rape, it may not. In this case the complaint appears to be not the consent issue but that he allegedly didn't use a condom.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
you're never staying over at mine.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Christ, your a fucking twat on numerous levels aren't you.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
I thought you were homeless.
Fwiw, while I have no idea of the circs in issue or the intention of the Swedish Parliament, you have to at least consider the poss of prostitution being in play somewhere here. It's def a little unusual.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Your basic decency always shines through, eh?
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
not at the moment. but next time i am you can't stay in my doorway.
what has prostitution got to do with anything? has it been mentioned anywhere at all in the reports? i am confused as to what you are saying here. was this woman a prostitute (i was under the impression both complainants were wikileaks volunteers) and if so does that suggest her rights to a penis-free sleep have been repealed because of her sex work?
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