Also applicable to AF/ACG/ANCOM
Same really. I don’t expect unions to deliver the holy grail but that’s where the fight is right now and also my activity.Had been meaning to write something on here after seeing the recent-ish bump, and now, only a month late, I'm getting around to it. I think I have better answers to the question now than when the thread first started - I don't think I wrote much on this thread in 2021, but a few things to add now:
- As mentioned on other threads, I think Syria and Rojava seriously dented my commitments to a strict unwavering "no war but class war" position, and Ukraine's pretty much broken what's left of it. I don't think that means I'm not an anarchist anymore, but it does mean that I wouldn't be suited to being a member of an anarchist organisation that aimed for theoretical and tactical unity or similar and required a nwbcw line as part of that. Would be sort of interested to hear more from Rob Ray on this point if he feels like it, since I feel like Freedom and SolFed have quite different positions on the subject?
- I am now pretty heavily committed at what I think the especifismists (if that's a word?) would call the "mass" or "popular level", possibly more so than is sensible. I can't imagine how I could make a meaningful contribution to an anarchist organisation without dropping the ball a bit in terms of my union work and so on. Not necessarily saying that one is better or more important than the other, I'm certainly not trying to say "why would anyone need an anarchist organisation when Unison has all the answers?", but that's where it seems to make sense to me to focus on at the moment, my situation may or may not be relatable to anyone else.
- Also, as a more general note, I'm not entirely confident that formal anarchist membership organisations/federations are always the best at acheiving the tasks that they aim to perform? Can expand on this if people want, but just briefly I'd say that reading The Idea you do learn about a great number of anarchist communist organisations that didn't manage to achieve much in terms of organisational stability, or ideological coherence, or possibly both?
Really glad you wrote that hitmouse. Not much to say myself but been doing a lot of self-questioning regarding the NWBTCW position. Not bothered about accusations of being a liberal or whatever, it's more thinking further about what class means, and oppression and imperialism, the dreaded identity politics and all sorts.Had been meaning to write something on here after seeing the recent-ish bump, and now, only a month late, I'm getting around to it. I think I have better answers to the question now than when the thread first started - I don't think I wrote much on this thread in 2021, but a few things to add now:
- As mentioned on other threads, I think Syria and Rojava seriously dented my commitments to a strict unwavering "no war but class war" position, and Ukraine's pretty much broken what's left of it. I don't think that means I'm not an anarchist anymore, but it does mean that I wouldn't be suited to being a member of an anarchist organisation that aimed for theoretical and tactical unity or similar and required a nwbcw line as part of that. Would be sort of interested to hear more from Rob Ray on this point if he feels like it, since I feel like Freedom and SolFed have quite different positions on the subject?
- I am now pretty heavily committed at what I think the especifismists (if that's a word?) would call the "mass" or "popular level", possibly more so than is sensible. I can't imagine how I could make a meaningful contribution to an anarchist organisation without dropping the ball a bit in terms of my union work and so on. Not necessarily saying that one is better or more important than the other, I'm certainly not trying to say "why would anyone need an anarchist organisation when Unison has all the answers?", but that's where it seems to make sense to me to focus on at the moment, my situation may or may not be relatable to anyone else.
- Also, as a more general note, I'm not entirely confident that formal anarchist membership organisations/federations are always the best at acheiving the tasks that they aim to perform? Can expand on this if people want, but just briefly I'd say that reading The Idea you do learn about a great number of anarchist communist organisations that didn't manage to achieve much in terms of organisational stability, or ideological coherence, or possibly both?
Mm well short version is there's not much in the way of clash as far as Freedom vs Solfed is concerned. Freedom's editorial perspective has tended to support Ukrainian self-defence but the Collective has no requirements over what members personally think on the subject. Similarly SolFed doesn't impose a viewpoint on its membership afaik, I've certainly not been censured about mine, and in general its position of building towards being a union would tend to militate against an imposed theoretical unity beyond the core principles. No-one's getting kicked out for voting in an election either, though they would be if they became an MP.Would be sort of interested to hear more from @Rob Ray on this point
- As mentioned on other threads, I think Syria and Rojava seriously dented my commitments to a strict unwavering "no war but class war" position, and Ukraine's pretty much broken what's left of it.
Yeah and from what I've seen crossing picket lines is fine with Sol Fed aswell.Mm well short version is there's not much in the way of clash as far as Freedom vs Solfed is concerned. Freedom's editorial perspective has tended to support Ukrainian self-defence but the Collective has no requirements over what members personally think on the subject. Similarly SolFed doesn't impose a viewpoint on its membership afaik, I've certainly not been censured about mine, and in general its position of building towards being a union would tend to militate against an imposed theoretical unity beyond the core principles. No-one's getting kicked out for voting in an election either, though they would be if they became an MP.
A spokesperson of SolFed was saying it online and I hear that that postion has been backed up by the national organisation.It isn't, but if you have a personal experience of someone doing that then take it up with the person's Local, or bring it to National if it's particularly egregious, rather than vagueposting like a teenage gossip.
I've seen the screenshots of some it but I don't have them.Link please. I don't gaf about what you've "heard," your local gossip scene is of zero interest to me.
perhaps so. but for internationalists i would have thought that other major wars like the saudi campaign in yemen or indeed the periodic zionist operations in gaza and the west bank might have elicited the occasional peep from nwbtcw people, never seen anything like that - though very happy to be corrected if i've just missed itTbf, there are wars all over the globe, and have been since I was a nipper (and, of course, long before). Lefties in this country have no chance of having any influence on most of these conflicts. Even giving aid or propagandist support can be difficult. Sometimes worldwide campaigns are worth joining with, but I can see why people concentrate on involvement of their own government.
here's something about solfed and picket lines i found with a moment's searchingYeah and from what I've seen crossing picket lines is fine with Sol Fed aswell.
There's actually quite a nice series of those here. I assume the intimation was that there are people within solfed undermining the principle and nothing is being done about them, but again, sans evidence there's not much more to be said about it. I do know the new federal secretary, who's been part of the class struggle movement for decades, would be absolutely furious if anyone ever accused him of being a scab, I can't imagine he's crossed a picket his whole life.here's something about solfed and picket lines i found with a moment's searching
how's about you have a look on the web and come up with something to bolster your peculiar assertion? or just fuck off and take your lies with you.
Really? I know you said you've seen screenshots. I'd like to see them and I'm sure you can get them sent along.A spokesperson of SolFed was saying it online and I hear that that postion has been backed up by the national organisation.
Yeah, fwiw even when I was at most most NWBTCW I was never quite confident about about how it applied to WWII (too many acronyms there!) but that was always a bit less immediately relevant.I think the case for NWBTCW is one which deserves its place in the debate and is not infrequently right, especially when talking about the use of force we as Western Europeans are likely to have a say in - imperial adventures. I don't think it covers every base equally, and never have - the Anarchist Federation of the time smugly going on about how it was against all wars while Hitler was busily genociding his way across Europe didn't hold up nearly as well as the campaign against World War I.
I mean, I tend to agree, but I suppose it is also the case that Kropotkin and co would've said similar in 1914? I don't think that what you or I are arguing here is the same as that, but who knows how it'll look in hindsight?Though that all said, I find the shit where people get called warmongers and such for disagreeing at least as objectionable from NWBTCW adherents as the "you don't care about poor people" when it comes from Labour voters. It's a difference in perspective, not a monstrous deviation from the One True Path.
I suppose in all fairness to Stop the War, there's things that are bad and there's things that we can do something about, we can disapprove of the Islamic State as strongly as we like but we're not able to even have a tame demo outside their embassy, let alone to materially disrupt them, and so on.For me the thing about nwbtcw is that its the @ equivalent of stop the war, there's no effort made around it when there aren't wars involving the UK. Where was the nwbtcw mobilising round eg the war in Congo etc?
Trying my hardest to be absolutely fair and even-handed here, I think it's possible that AA might be just doing a bad-faith reading in the most uncharitable light possible rather than absolutely making things up. As it happens, I crossed a picket line today and probably will do the same tomorrow, because we've got an agreement that strikers are allowed to go in to use the works toilets; that might be a ridiculous example and it's very unlikely anyone from SolFed was asked about my toilet habits, but I can see how it might plausibly be the case that, for instance, someone from SolFed might have been asked about, say, international students on tier 4 visas attending lectures during a strike, or medical staff who've been given an exemption from striking because they need to provide emergency cover, and said they thought it was alright. Or it might just be entirely made up, without seeing these alleged screenshots it's impossible to say.There's actually quite a nice series of those here. I assume the intimation was that there are people within solfed undermining the principle and nothing is being done about them, but again, sans evidence there's not much more to be said about it. I do know the new federal secretary, who's been part of the class struggle movement for decades, would be absolutely furious if anyone ever accused him of being a scab, I can't imagine he's crossed a picket his whole life.
perhaps so. but for internationalists i would have thought that other major wars like the saudi campaign in yemen or indeed the periodic zionist operations in gaza and the west bank might have elicited the occasional peep from nwbtcw people, never seen anything like that - though very happy to be corrected if i've just missed it
As it happens, I crossed a picket line today and probably will do the same tomorrow, because we've got an agreement that strikers are allowed to go in to use the works toilets; that might be a ridiculous example and it's very unlikely anyone from SolFed was asked about my toilet habits, but I can see how it might plausibly be the case that, for instance, someone from SolFed might have been asked about, say, international students on tier 4 visas attending lectures during a strike, or medical staff who've been given an exemption from striking because they need to provide emergency cover, and said they thought it was alright. Or it might just be entirely made up, without seeing these alleged screenshots it's impossible to say.
TBH he's increasingly showing himself to be a nasty and disruptive prick.
Yeah, another example at the back of my head is that on the picket line today I was speaking to a fellow picket who told me that, as a relatively new hire, he'd crossed without thinking during an earlier round of action last year before deciding to look into it a bit more and joining the union. I don't particularly love the fact that he crossed last year, but I'm happy and excited that new people who have no previous experience of collective class action are getting involved, and as you say there's not much point in making a moral judgement based on what he did last year. I think we also excuse people from striking if they're in their final year before retirement for some kind of pension-related reason?Exactly, some have been exempted from strike action for financial reasons (can't afford to lose a day's pay) as well as the things like you mention. It's about a class response and building power surely anyway, not making moral judgements on individuals for something they've done?
Yeah, another example at the back of my head is that on the picket line today I was speaking to a fellow picket who told me that, as a relatively new hire, he'd crossed without thinking during an earlier round of action last year before deciding to look into it a bit more and joining the union. I don't particularly love the fact that he crossed last year, but I'm happy and excited that new people who have no previous experience of collective class action are getting involved, and as you say there's not much point in making a moral judgement based on what he did last year. I think we also excuse people from striking if they're in their final year before retirement for some kind of pension-related reason?
Having said that, the financial reasons bit sounds a bit dire, I'd think it'd be better for the union to raise money and pay people strike pay so they don't have to either lose the money or cross the picket line... but I know that's easier for me to say as a member of a union with a very large membership that's also generally pretty bad at getting them to go out on strike, the financial calculations must be very different for smaller unions with a higher proportion of striking members.