Are you an anarchist but not a member of an anarchist organisation?
- Thread starter danny la rouge
- Start date
Also applicable to AF/ACG/ANCOM
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Not really 
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
Had been meaning to write something on here after seeing the recent-ish bump, and now, only a month late, I'm getting around to it. I think I have better answers to the question now than when the thread first started - I don't think I wrote much on this thread in 2021, but a few things to add now:
- As mentioned on other threads, I think Syria and Rojava seriously dented my commitments to a strict unwavering "no war but class war" position, and Ukraine's pretty much broken what's left of it. I don't think that means I'm not an anarchist anymore, but it does mean that I wouldn't be suited to being a member of an anarchist organisation that aimed for theoretical and tactical unity or similar and required a nwbcw line as part of that. Would be sort of interested to hear more from Rob Ray on this point if he feels like it, since I feel like Freedom and SolFed have quite different positions on the subject?
- I am now pretty heavily committed at what I think the especifismists (if that's a word?) would call the "mass" or "popular level", possibly more so than is sensible. I can't imagine how I could make a meaningful contribution to an anarchist organisation without dropping the ball a bit in terms of my union work and so on. Not necessarily saying that one is better or more important than the other, I'm certainly not trying to say "why would anyone need an anarchist organisation when Unison has all the answers?", but that's where it seems to make sense to me to focus on at the moment, my situation may or may not be relatable to anyone else.
- Also, as a more general note, I'm not entirely confident that formal anarchist membership organisations/federations are always the best at acheiving the tasks that they aim to perform? Can expand on this if people want, but just briefly I'd say that reading The Idea you do learn about a great number of anarchist communist organisations that didn't manage to achieve much in terms of organisational stability, or ideological coherence, or possibly both?
Same really. I don’t expect unions to deliver the holy grail but that’s where the fight is right now and also my activity.
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
Really glad you wrote that hitmouse. Not much to say myself but been doing a lot of self-questioning regarding the NWBTCW position. Not bothered about accusations of being a liberal or whatever, it's more thinking further about what class means, and oppression and imperialism, the dreaded identity politics and all sorts.
(Sorry if not terribly eloquent. I've been very tired.)
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Mm well short version is there's not much in the way of clash as far as Freedom vs Solfed is concerned. Freedom's editorial perspective has tended to support Ukrainian self-defence but the Collective has no requirements over what members personally think on the subject. Similarly SolFed doesn't impose a viewpoint on its membership afaik, I've certainly not been censured about mine, and in general its position of building towards being a union would tend to militate against an imposed theoretical unity beyond the core principles. No-one's getting kicked out for voting in an election either, though they would be if they became an MP.
petee
no gods, no malarkey
thank you. it needs to be said. orgs I have respect for have gone awry on this.
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Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
I think the case for NWBTCW is one which deserves its place in the debate and is not infrequently right, especially when talking about the use of force we as Western Europeans are likely to have a say in - imperial adventures. I don't think it covers every base equally, and never have - the Anarchist Federation of the time smugly going on about how it was against all wars while Hitler was busily genociding his way across Europe didn't hold up nearly as well as the campaign against World War I.
Though that all said, I find the shit where people get called warmongers and such for disagreeing at least as objectionable from NWBTCW adherents as the "you don't care about poor people" when it comes from Labour voters. It's a difference in perspective, not a monstrous deviation from the One True Path.
Though that all said, I find the shit where people get called warmongers and such for disagreeing at least as objectionable from NWBTCW adherents as the "you don't care about poor people" when it comes from Labour voters. It's a difference in perspective, not a monstrous deviation from the One True Path.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
For me the thing about nwbtcw is that its the @ equivalent of stop the war, there's no effort made around it when there aren't wars involving the UK. Where was the nwbtcw mobilising round eg the war in Congo etc?
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Tbf, there are wars all over the globe, and have been since I was a nipper (and, of course, long before). Lefties in this country have no chance of having any influence on most of these conflicts. Even giving aid or propagandist support can be difficult. Sometimes worldwide campaigns are worth joining with, but I can see why people concentrate on involvement of their own government.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Trouble with slogans is they're blunt instruments, and highly susceptible to "well what about this then." To my mind slogans have to be seen as pointers, not commandments, otherwise they're often doing more harm than good in the long run. ACAB is true, but not because everyone who has ever joined the police force is a bastard as an individual, it points towards the mould the institution forces on a person.
Yeah and from what I've seen crossing picket lines is fine with Sol Fed aswell.
A spokesperson of SolFed was saying it online and I hear that that postion has been backed up by the national organisation.
I've seen the screenshots of some it but I don't have them.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
perhaps so. but for internationalists i would have thought that other major wars like the saudi campaign in yemen or indeed the periodic zionist operations in gaza and the west bank might have elicited the occasional peep from nwbtcw people, never seen anything like that - though very happy to be corrected if i've just missed it
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
here's something about solfed and picket lines i found with a moment's searchingYeah and from what I've seen crossing picket lines is fine with Sol Fed aswell.
how's about you have a look on the web and come up with something to bolster your peculiar assertion? or just fuck off and take your lies with you.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
The peace movement have been fairly on it in calling for the end of UK arms shipments to the Saudis but there's limited crossover there with the class struggle set. I tend to get the impression that class struggle orgs are theoretically in favour of applying NWBTCW to places like Yemen, but in practice will follow the lead of whatever the press (mainstream and left) is interested in when it comes to whether formal positions are taken on international conflict, because it's not the main focus.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
There's actually quite a nice series of those here. I assume the intimation was that there are people within solfed undermining the principle and nothing is being done about them, but again, sans evidence there's not much more to be said about it. I do know the new federal secretary, who's been part of the class struggle movement for decades, would be absolutely furious if anyone ever accused him of being a scab, I can't imagine he's crossed a picket his whole life.
BristolEcho
Well-Known Member
Really? I know you said you've seen screenshots. I'd like to see them and I'm sure you can get them sent along.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
Yeah, fwiw even when I was at most most NWBTCW I was never quite confident about about how it applied to WWII (too many acronyms there!) but that was always a bit less immediately relevant.
I mean, I tend to agree, but I suppose it is also the case that Kropotkin and co would've said similar in 1914? I don't think that what you or I are arguing here is the same as that, but who knows how it'll look in hindsight?
I suppose in all fairness to Stop the War, there's things that are bad and there's things that we can do something about, we can disapprove of the Islamic State as strongly as we like but we're not able to even have a tame demo outside their embassy, let alone to materially disrupt them, and so on.
Trying my hardest to be absolutely fair and even-handed here, I think it's possible that AA might be just doing a bad-faith reading in the most uncharitable light possible rather than absolutely making things up. As it happens, I crossed a picket line today and probably will do the same tomorrow, because we've got an agreement that strikers are allowed to go in to use the works toilets; that might be a ridiculous example and it's very unlikely anyone from SolFed was asked about my toilet habits, but I can see how it might plausibly be the case that, for instance, someone from SolFed might have been asked about, say, international students on tier 4 visas attending lectures during a strike, or medical staff who've been given an exemption from striking because they need to provide emergency cover, and said they thought it was alright. Or it might just be entirely made up, without seeing these alleged screenshots it's impossible to say.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
One of the things that's annoyed me about the discussion on Ukraine with some of the NWBTCW position is the mixing up of a whole load of various issues; a political position against war, a moral position against any armed struggle, the risk of escalation, practical implications of what people should do in Ukraine or here, etc.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Exactly, some have been exempted from strike action for financial reasons (can't afford to lose a day's pay) as well as the things like you mention. It's about a class response and building power surely anyway, not making moral judgements on individuals for something they've done?
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
You forget that AA is the ‘revolutionary’ equivalent of those c19th anabaptist sects that believed in pre-ordination to a very extreme extent; they divided the world into ‘the saved’ ( mostly them, coincidently ) and the damned (everyone else). They took their doctrine so far as to believe that actions didn’t matter; if you had god’s grace you were heaven bound whatever your behaviour. If you didn’t you coukd live like a saint and would still go to hell.
Urban’s favourite anti-Semite is like that. Because he has declared himself ‘revolutionary’ his behaviour, whether that be ableist/ dis-ableist posting or making claims about others based on ‘screen shots I saw’ is completely acceptable as he knows is on the side of the ( revolutionary) angels.
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hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
Yeah, another example at the back of my head is that on the picket line today I was speaking to a fellow picket who told me that, as a relatively new hire, he'd crossed without thinking during an earlier round of action last year before deciding to look into it a bit more and joining the union. I don't particularly love the fact that he crossed last year, but I'm happy and excited that new people who have no previous experience of collective class action are getting involved, and as you say there's not much point in making a moral judgement based on what he did last year. I think we also excuse people from striking if they're in their final year before retirement for some kind of pension-related reason?
Having said that, the financial reasons bit sounds a bit dire, I'd think it'd be better for the union to raise money and pay people strike pay so they don't have to either lose the money or cross the picket line... but I know that's easier for me to say as a member of a union with a very large membership that's also generally pretty bad at getting them to go out on strike, the financial calculations must be very different for smaller unions with a higher proportion of striking members.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Some older final salary public sector schemes are based on your last year’s earnings ( actually best of last three) so protracted strike action in your last year could have life long financial repercussions. The arrangement used to be you could go in to work but donate those wages to the strike fund.
When I was last on strike in the 80s I regularly ‘crossed the picket line’ to use the loos and - after washing my hands!- to use the kitchen to make the cheese rolls and soup - we were allowed in and , funnily enough that roll ( did you see what I did there) fell on us apprentices.
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