Because if you’re trying to eliminate class, you’re creating a new class system. Boffins smarter than me may have a better answer though.
Are you a marxist but not a member of a marxist organisation?
- Thread starter hitmouse
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Because if you’re trying to eliminate class, you’re creating a new class system. Boffins smarter than me may have a better answer though.
I don't think that's the idea at all
hitmouse
entreprenulsoip critical thinking
I think I might agree with you there, but I'm not sure Marx would've?
Feel free to start your own "are you a non-anarchist non-marxian socialist but not a member of a NANMS org?" thread if you'd like?
Comrades, I think Belboid's ultra-left errors here are rooted in an inability to correctly apply what Trotsky wrote about the United Front to today's situation.
Nah, just kidding, what I actually think the distinction you're drawing is a bit flaky here. Presumably you wouldn't deny that being involved in the ANL or whatever could be useful activity for marxists, or marxist praxis or whatever? And you were responding to a comment about ACORN, which at least seeks to be/claims to be a union, so I dunno if it's helpful to put unions and single issue campaigns in the same category anyway? I don't think the vast majority of anarchists would claim ACORN or whatever to be an anarchist organisation, but rather, to the extent that they support something like ACORN, that they see it as a way of building class power?
Any specific vanguard party or just vanguard parties in general? I think the list of reasons why the CCP is problematic are a bit different to the reasons why the RCP were shit, but I can't say I like either of them much.
Based on which examples of vanguard groups taking power?
based on the idea that, as I understand it, a vanguard party is intended to spread class consciousness
Carl Steele
Well-Known Member
As I think Rosa Luxemburg put it, and maybe Trotsky at one time in his career, the party substitutes itself for the class, and then the central committee substitutes itself for the party ...
In general.
hitmouse
entreprenulsoip critical thinking
I mean, I think their track record is the most important thing to go by. At the large scale, if you get a vanguard party that's capable of taking power, you get Russia at best and something like North Korea as a worse-case example, at the smaller scale, if you have a small group that is not capable of taking power but aspires to be a vanguard party, then you tend to get an inflated sense of self-importance. None of it seems that appealing?
Here's what an old Marxist had to say about it, if you're interested:
I think an organised effort to spread class consciousness is vital. I don't see anything else working. I'm not dogmatic about it, but I don't see much from, for example, anarchist groups in that context. They tend to be focused elsewhere.
In the end secterianism is the bane of the left. But we all know that
Fair enough. But do they?
I can only speak for the SPEW because that's the only one I'm involved in
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Other types of organisations can do that , in fact an internet account can do that . The basis of a vanguard party is that in theory it’s supposed to recruit the best , and more advanced sections of the working class , to lead the working class to revolution . In order to do that it has to have hegemony of a critical mass of that class.
Nice acronym. But I thought the view of a vanguard is that the proletariat aren’t able to be revolutionary. So you super heroes do that work for them. Without ever becoming rulers. Lol
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Even within the vanguard theory the proletariat can be revolutionary ie as in Portugal. Within vanguard hindsight theory it’s the lack of a mass vanguard party that explains why it ( the revolutionary situation ) didn’t lead to a successful revolution.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Good stuff. That pretty much sums up where I am alongside rank and file trade union work. Both methods, of course, deeply unfashionable…
We already have that: not everyone in society is equally class conscious.
Oh you’re trolling. Ok.
Seems like a bad faith reading to me
I'm not trolling, why say something so stupid?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Of course but they are not . What did Marx say about the ruling ideas ?
Because I’m stupid. And you just repeated an earlier assertion.
I've no idea.
This conversation just seems to be in bad faith at this point. I mean, you could just outline what marx said and we could discuss it.
Obvious troll is obvious.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
I mean, none of us are in a vanguard party, so you should be class consciousing us really?
This thread is wild
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
Yeah stick around, it’s cool.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
So one of the other problems with vanguardism is that the party has nothing to learn from working class people.
This is categorically not true in my experience. People individually and collectively generally have quite sophisticated ideas about what is wrong with their workplaces and communities - and creative thoughts about how to improve them.
This is categorically not true in my experience. People individually and collectively generally have quite sophisticated ideas about what is wrong with their workplaces and communities - and creative thoughts about how to improve them.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Well it wasn’t intended to be in bad faith . Marx said , in so many words , that the ruling ideas in society are the ideas of the ruling class . For example the newspapers , the news channels etc are owned by members of the ruling class . The way the economy is explained is explained in the ideology of the ruling class , the way politics is explained is explained in the ideas of the ruling class etc etc .
Within Marxist theory precisely because at times the working class , as labour, comes into conflict with capital it is possible that workers through struggle begin to break from the ruling ideology and see the need for independent organisations and representation that put the working class interests first .
Marx didn’t have a theory of a vanguard party . Early Marxists saw the need for an independent party or organisation , the majority saw socialism as achievable by elections . The syndicalists like the IWW saw the formation of one big union and a general strike as ushering socialism . Lenin was the main contributor to the theory of a vanguard party whilst at the same time denouncing insurrection by a chosen few .
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
The Leninist vanguard party is based on the idea that the working class, by itself, can only ever achieve trade union consciousness at best. So the role of the vanguard party is to shepherd the proles towards their party, and once in the party and under the firm guidance and discipline of the vanguard party's fully class conscious and infallible leadership, then the workers will be led to the promised land.
It's role is not to spread class consciousness but loyalty to a party that has substituted itself for the class.
I'm posting while in a zoom component of a SPEW meeting on climate change. It's fucking Marx-tastic here in
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