Are you a marxist but not a member of a marxist organisation?

[Smokeandsteam]

Id say im highly influenced by Marx's thought and elements of Marxism. For me, the best Marxist organisations are ones aiming for concrete goals based on real lived collective experience... they dont have to call themselves Marxist organisations. And a lot of the actual Marxist ones are at best a drag and at worse well... I think we all know.

I get emails and follow Counterfire but im not a member (basically cos of what I said above).

I agree with your point about the best and most effective groups are those aiming for concrete goals 'based on real lived collective experience', but my general experience over the last period has been a degeneration of that type of work across the board. The retreat from class politics and the rise of identity, Corbyn/Labourism, the culture of online 'activism' and, perhaps, time and the passing of one generation (mine/ours) to a younger one in terms of energy and time have all had an effect. As for Counterfire, I can't say I know too much about them but what I have seen is okay, but I've never thought about joining them.

 

[belboid]

Id say im highly influenced by Marx's thought and elements of Marxism. For me, the best Marxist organisations are ones aiming for concrete goals based on real lived collective experience... they dont have to call themselves Marxist organisations. And a lot of the actual Marxist ones are at best a drag and at worse well... I think we all know.

In that sense, yes, I am a member of Acorn, which is a direct action housing union. It doesnt ever mention Marx or Marxism but a lot of the activists are young and left or recently radicalised. It's not perfect - they have paid professional staff, too many links to Labour and all that jazz but I think its a solid group personally.

I get emails and follow Counterfire but im not a member (basically cos of what I said above).

A single issue group can’t really be ‘Marxist’ in the same way it could be a (version of) anarchist, imo. For mutualist anarchism that working together in an anti capitalist, non hierarchical organisation is an example of anarchy in action. You can’t really get that in Marxism, cos of the state.

Counterfire are just extrots who have dumped most of their insights to jump into bed with the Stalinist rump of the cpb.

 

[danny la rouge]

A single issue group can’t really be ‘Marxist’

Why not. I’ve read no end of academic articles examining all manner of (single) issues “from a Marxist perspective”.

Which is, to be fair, one of the connotations of the term “Marxist” that makes me not want to call myself one. I think it was butchersapron who coined the term “PhD Marxism”.

 

[Pickman's model]

Why not. I’ve read no end of academic articles examining all manner of (single) issues “from a Marxist perspective”.

Which is, to be fair, one of the connotations of the term “Marxist” that makes me not want to call myself one. I think it was butchersapron who coined the term “PhD Marxism”.

in 1991 i went to birmingham university for an interview. this professor took me into his study and on the backof his door was a poster of karl marx

i didn't go there

 

[LDC]

A single issue group can’t really be ‘Marxist’ in the same way it could be a (version of) anarchist, imo. For mutualist anarchism that working together in an anti capitalist, non hierarchical organisation is an example of anarchy in action. You can’t really get that in Marxism, cos of the state.

Not sure I get what you're saying tbh, what do you mean, 'cos of the state'? As Danny has said there's plenty of people and groups like that.

Big question about non-hierarchy that needs discussion and what that means tbh, it's slipped into common place usage when discussing this stuff.

 

[belboid]

Why not. I’ve read no end of academic articles examining all manner of (single) issues “from a Marxist perspective”.

Which is, to be fair, one of the connotations of the term “Marxist” that makes me not want to call myself one. I think it was butchersapron who coined the term “PhD Marxism”.

I don’t see what academic articles have to do with organisations. Anything can be analysed from a Marxist (or anarchist or anything else) perspective. It doesn’t make those academies marxist.

A Marxist approach to single issue campaigns is, generally, for them not to be limited to Marxists. You don’t have to believe that there is a tendency for the rate of profit to fall to join (say) cnd or the anl.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don’t see what academic articles have to do with organisations. Anything can be analysed from a Marxist (or anarchist or anything else) perspective. It doesn’t make those academies marxist.

A Marxist approach to single issue campaigns is, generally, for them not to be limited to Marxists. You don’t have to believe that there is a tendency for the rate of profit to fall to join (say) cnd or the anl.

campaigns often involve people from a range of political backgrounds, you don't have to be a marxist to recognise that

 

[belboid]

Not sure I get what you're saying tbh, what do you mean, 'cos of the state'? As Danny has said there's plenty of people and groups like that.

Big question about non-hierarchy that needs discussion and what that means tbh, it's slipped into common place usage when discussing this stuff.

It’s not true of all anarchist viewpoints, only for those who think we can build a bit of an anarchist society even within capitalism, that you can ignore the state.

 

[belboid]

campaigns often involve people from a range of political backgrounds, you don't have to be a marxist to recognise that

Yes, exactly.

 

[danny la rouge]

I don’t see what academic articles have to do with organisations. Anything can be analysed from a Marxist (or anarchist or anything else) perspective. It doesn’t make those academies marxist.

A Marxist approach to single issue campaigns is, generally, for them not to be limited to Marxists. You don’t have to believe that there is a tendency for the rate of profit to fall to join (say) cnd or the anl.

No you don't. I was answering the claim you made in an earlier post, but I honestly can't be bothered quibbling over every new goalpost, so I'm out.

 

[belboid]

No you don't. I was answering the claim you made in an earlier post, but I honestly can't be bothered quibbling over every new goalpost, so I'm out.

Perhaps you should have quoted the relevant post then.

 

[danny la rouge]

Perhaps you should have quoted the relevant post then.

I did.

 

[belboid]

I did.

?? Well, sorry, but your last comment makes no sense then. There is a clear and obvious distinction between analysing a campaign from a particular perspective and the campaign itself.

If it takes on arguments that (say) you need to challenge the entirety of capitalism to win your aim, it’s no longer a single issue campaign.

 

[danny la rouge]

?? Well, sorry, but your last comment makes no sense then. There is a clear and obvious distinction between analysing a campaign from a particular perspective and the campaign itself.

If it takes on arguments that (say) you need to challenge the entirety of capitalism to win your aim, it’s no longer a single issue campaign.

We speak a completely different language.

You said single issue groups can’t be Marxist. I said they could. You said here’s two that aren’t. Two I didn’t claim were. I only claimed it was possible for a single issue group to be Marxist.

Honestly it’s utterly impossible to discuss anything with you because it’s never about content it’s about fake semantics, moved goalposts around bizarre tangents, and quibbles you introduce after the fact and then double down on. Always.

I’m putting you on ignore until I’ve got some headspace and then we’ll go back to just discussing music. Have a good evening.

 

[andysays]

This thread is definitely confirming why I've always steered clear of becoming a member of a Marxist organisation

 

[Serge Forward]

Ideologies like Leninism shit on top of Marx's work.

Fixed for you

 

[belboid]

We speak a completely different language.

You said single issue groups can’t be Marxist. I said they could. You said here’s two that aren’t. Two I didn’t claim were. I only claimed it was possible for a single issue group to be Marxist.

Honestly it’s utterly impossible to discuss anything with you because it’s never about content it’s about fake semantics, moved goalposts around bizarre tangents, and quibbles you introduce after the fact and then double down on. Always.

I’m putting you on ignore until I’ve got some headspace and then we’ll go back to just discussing music. Have a good evening.

Oh and this is what you always do. Blame someone else because you make (half of) a lousy argument. You seem to think you made various points that you never actually made. It’s an arrogant and dishonest approach.

I replied directly to your single sentence post with no movement of goalposts (not that I realised it was a point scoring contest), but disagreeing with what you explicitly said. You could have clarified what you thought I was misunderstanding or argued against it. But you choose to ignore and run off. Again.

 

[belboid]

This thread is definitely confirming why I've always steered clear of becoming a member of a Marxist organisation

And exactly why I don’t want to be an ‘anarchist’

 

[Magnus McGinty]

And exactly why I don’t want to be an ‘anarchist’

And thus we are divided.

 

[redcogs]

i remain attracted to the idealist liberationist aspects of marx, and in so far as i analyse anything, its a class position that gives me my bearings.

The problem is that i ended up breaking with two 'marxist' organisations, not really over fundamental disagreements regarding ideology, more about tactics and strategy. Personal failings probably also played a role. Its one of life's disappointments that a mass marxist movement has failed to take root in my lifetime.. However, if one bursts through in the next decade, (assuming i have the longevity) please give us a nudge

 

[NoXion]

Fixed for you

And thus we are divided.

Yeah, the performative sectarianism has been one of the most consistently irritating things for me, ever since I discovered revolutionary left-wing politics two decades ago.

I am aware that this divisive shit has historical roots stretching back to well before I was even a twinkle in my father's eye, and the differences in ideology and philosophy are almost certainly irreconcilable.

Which doesn't change how it's always made me feel like a bit of an outsider, because I really struggle to give a fuck about it beyond meme potential.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yeah, the performative sectarianism has been one of the most consistently irritating things for me, ever since I discovered revolutionary left-wing politics two decades ago.

I am aware that this divisive shit has historical roots stretching back to well before I was even a twinkle in my father's eye, and the differences in ideology and philosophy are almost certainly irreconcilable.

Which doesn't change how it's always made me feel like a bit of an outsider, because I really struggle to give a fuck about it beyond meme potential.

The SWP are annoying though as they attempt to control anything that isn’t their initiative which gains some appeal. And if they can’t control it they oppose it. They’ll set up a separate thing. They do this all the time with anti-fascist stuff.

 

[NoXion]

The SWP are annoying though as they attempt to control anything that isn’t their initiative which gains some appeal. And if they can’t control it they oppose it. They’ll set up a separate thing. They do this all the time with anti-fascist stuff.

Yes, this is one of the many, many reasons I never got involved with the SWP.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yes, this is one of the many, many reasons I never got involved with the SWP.

I had a passing interest once and then they basically stalked me to ‘come to a meeting’. Knocking on my door fairly frequently. Gave me the chills.

 

[NoXion]

I had a passing interest once and then they basically stalked me to ‘come to a meeting’. Knocking on my door fairly frequently. Gave me the chills.

"Come theorise with us Magnus. For ever and ever and ever..."

 

[Serge Forward]

Yeah, the performative sectarianism has been one of the most consistently irritating things for me, ever since I discovered revolutionary left-wing politics two decades ago.

I am aware that this divisive shit has historical roots stretching back to well before I was even a twinkle in my father's eye, and the differences in ideology and philosophy are almost certainly irreconcilable.

Which doesn't change how it's always made me feel like a bit of an outsider, because I really struggle to give a fuck about it beyond meme potential.

It's not sectarianism though, is it, because that implies Marxist-Leninism and libertarian communism are on the same side. They're really not. On the one hand you have those who seek some sort of "workers' state" and a top-down notion of "democratic centralism". On the other hand, you have those who envision building some sort of workers' control from below, based on a form of direct democracy via workers' and community organisations.

There is an abyss between those two forms of socialism, and the history of wholesale shootings, gulags, etc hasn'tbrought us any closer together. Sure, Marxist-Leninists are a bit better behaved these days because it's a moribund movement that needs to make friends where it can. Luckily they're unlikely to be in a position of influence again. Sadly, neither are anarchists. In the toss up between socialism or barbarism, barbarism is clearly winning. But I live in hope. Do nowt and we're all fucked... build a movement and there's a chance (however slim) that things could improve.

Or as old Bert Brecht said: "Those who fight can lose, but those who don’t fight have already lost”.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

"Come theorise with us Magnus. For ever and ever and ever..."

Where as, conversely, pretty much any other group I’ve made overtures towards tend to be paranoid as fuck. Either you’re somehow already known so maybe ok or viewed with mistrust.
Which makes me think the SWP are a cop trap.

 

[The39thStep]

I spent a couple of decades in the early SWP and really enjoyed the first half . The organisation still had a good number of industrial and trade union militants , the rank and file period meant that we knew key militants in local workplaces . The early anti fascism stuff was both thrilling and effective and the Right to Work campaign was bold and drew in a lot of support.
I learnt a lot of theory and history from educational and learnt a lot from comrades and contacts about organising at work .
What I did notice over the years was the move from a quite eclectic approach to Marxist theory , history and practice to one that was solely based on the 1917 vanguard model to the exclusion of anything else . Whereas before there was a critical appreciation say of Luxembourg , the IWW , aspects of the work of the British Communist Party in the unemployed movement, it’s work in fighting fascist both physically and in practically in the campaigns for local tenants unions and its post war occupations of buildings to tackle homelessness etc this was all eclipsed by ‘what Lenin said ‘.
The last ten years saw me in repeated battles over the rank file , anti fascism work , the poll tax and miners strike tactics and working within local communities on local issues. The organisation slowly went internal , theoretical clarity was apparently needed and Bambury promised ‘blood on the carpets ‘ . At the end my heart wasn’t in it so I drifted out .
I am for socialism from below , the self activity of the working class and for trying to work with local working class activists to tackle local working class issues . Couldn’t give a toss about recreating the Bolsheviks .
Was and still am an enthusiastic supporter of the IWCA model .

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I’m also for the IWCA model.

 

[glitch hiker]

Why is a vanguard party problematic?