tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
It wasn't that stable in: Vietnam, Laos, Afghanistan, Angola, Namibia, South Africa, Mozambique, Chile, Korea, Argentina, Italy, Nicaragua, Congo, El Salvador, Cambodia, Greece, or Indonesia.
Are we now in a new cold war?
- Thread starter Bingoman
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It wasn't that stable in: Vietnam, Laos, Afghanistan, Angola, Namibia, South Africa, Mozambique, Chile, Korea, Argentina, Italy, Nicaragua, Congo, El Salvador, Cambodia, Greece, or Indonesia.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
And I forgot the overthrow of the Mossadeq government in Iran and the CIA backed coup d'etat in San Marino.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
ska invita
back on the other side
One factor is what happens when a republican loon gets into the white house, likely they see Putin as an ally.
ska invita
back on the other side
Nonetheless Eastern Europe is going to get extra militarised
Idris2002
cavalcade of hubris
It was stable because the superpower rivalry was displaced into countless proxy wars in those countries, and others. The proxy wars of the Cold War lead to millions of death, and the ruin of countless countries (Cambodia being the worst example there, probably), but they were actually integral to the stability of the system. Can any such "safety valve" be identified today, even at the cost of millions of lives? I doubt it, somehow.
Oh, and Pickman's model - I never said it was bloodless, just that it was stable!
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it's often said how it was bloodless, when what they mean is no, or very few, russians or americans died fighting each other
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
again
Idris2002
cavalcade of hubris
And it's not even true:
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i've filed that away for next time someone brings up the bloodless nonsenseAnd it's not even true:
RD2003
Got a really fucking shitty attitude
It was also clear what people were supposed to be fighting about. Now both Russia and the US are much more unpredictable places, and what they imagine they're in conflict about with each other more opaque. Much of the world, understandably given their experiences, can't take seriously the US's rhetoric about 'freedom,' and sympathises with Russia at one or another level. Many US Republicans are also largely in agreement with Putin's social conservatism if not his foreign policy, and are locked into permanent conflict with a Democratic establishment which is in its own way equally dogmatic. Both sides add fuel to a fire which, it seems, can never be put out as long as the US remains politically stable, with neither side able to impose a decisive victory. But with the way the world is looking the time will come, as long as a worldwide conflagration doesn't consume everybody.
Meanwhile, Russia's future is almost impossible to predict, and all we can conclude is that the outcome will almost certainly not contribute to a stable and predictable world situation.
As said many times before, the naive western hopes of 1989-91 are dead and buried, and the worst is yet to come.
RD2003
Got a really fucking shitty attitude
I suspect that this article hardly scratches the surface with regard to the worldwide instability to come. With Europe, as in the Cold War, the 'theatre.'
philosophersforukraine.com.ua
'Yet, as former members of the USSR aligned themselves with the EU and NATO, and the winners of the Cold War repurposed their military’s technological advantage into commercial advantage, flooding Russian homes with high-tech products the like of which no home-grown company could match, we barely noticed the growing, smouldering, anger of the Russian political class and security apparatus.
Russian influence seeped into every corner of Europe’s economic and political landscape. Few questions were asked as the money poured in – communism had been defeated so what was the threat?
As the first evidence of the return of ghosts of Europe’s brutal past emerged in the Balkans as ethnic and religious conflicts tore apart the previous communist dictatorship in Yugoslavia, NATO snubbed Russia. Acting unilaterally in what Russia saw as its sphere of influence, it attacked its allies the Serbs.'
'Fuelled by hubris, the expansionist liberal democracy project defeated itself in Iraq and Afghanistan. In the aftermath, it became clear the world was a more complex place. It is not binary, but multipolar: a complex web of competing nations tied together by the threads of global trade, financial systems and – with most fragility – the rule of international law.
Writing in 1989 John Gray claimed, “the waning of the Soviet system is bound to be accompanied by a waxing of ethnic and nationalistic conflicts – just the sort of stuff history has always been made of.”
Stalin had ruthlessly dislocated entire peoples, relocating them without regard to their histories. As the USSR collapsed Gray saw that “age-old enmities and loyalties” were coming back to the surface after decades of totalitarian suppression. It was “not, then, the end of history, but instead its resumption – and on decidedly traditional lines.” '
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philosophersforukraine.com.ua
'Yet, as former members of the USSR aligned themselves with the EU and NATO, and the winners of the Cold War repurposed their military’s technological advantage into commercial advantage, flooding Russian homes with high-tech products the like of which no home-grown company could match, we barely noticed the growing, smouldering, anger of the Russian political class and security apparatus.
Russian influence seeped into every corner of Europe’s economic and political landscape. Few questions were asked as the money poured in – communism had been defeated so what was the threat?
As the first evidence of the return of ghosts of Europe’s brutal past emerged in the Balkans as ethnic and religious conflicts tore apart the previous communist dictatorship in Yugoslavia, NATO snubbed Russia. Acting unilaterally in what Russia saw as its sphere of influence, it attacked its allies the Serbs.'
'Fuelled by hubris, the expansionist liberal democracy project defeated itself in Iraq and Afghanistan. In the aftermath, it became clear the world was a more complex place. It is not binary, but multipolar: a complex web of competing nations tied together by the threads of global trade, financial systems and – with most fragility – the rule of international law.
Writing in 1989 John Gray claimed, “the waning of the Soviet system is bound to be accompanied by a waxing of ethnic and nationalistic conflicts – just the sort of stuff history has always been made of.”
Stalin had ruthlessly dislocated entire peoples, relocating them without regard to their histories. As the USSR collapsed Gray saw that “age-old enmities and loyalties” were coming back to the surface after decades of totalitarian suppression. It was “not, then, the end of history, but instead its resumption – and on decidedly traditional lines.” '
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Joy. Not a good sign.
www.reuters.com
Russian Duma takes first step to revoke ratification of nuclear test ban treaty
Russia's parliament took the first step on Tuesday towards revoking ratification of the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and its top lawmaker warned the United States that Moscow might even abandon the pact altogether.
phildwyer
Plata o plomo
Joy. Not a good sign.
Russian Duma takes first step to revoke ratification of nuclear test ban treaty
Russia's parliament took the first step on Tuesday towards revoking ratification of the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and its top lawmaker warned the United States that Moscow might even abandon the pact altogether.
Never mind a new cold war, we're looking at a new hot one.
_Russ_
Never not Knowingly Misunderstood
..........and the USA's Position on this treaty being
As in the quote in my previous post signed but never ratified.
_Russ_
Never not Knowingly Misunderstood
It wasn't a question
likesfish
You can't park here sir
America’s politics is weird they hardly ever ratify international treaty’s as congress has a say. Congress makes the House of Commons look intelligent and rational
.Some see any international law as communism or tyranny
RD2003
Got a really fucking shitty attitude
Parts of the world seem to think we're not in a cold war but a hot one.
Most people in non-Western countries want Russia’s war on Ukraine to end as soon as possible even if it means Kyiv ceding territory, according to a global poll published by the European Council on Foreign Relations.
“There remains a clear preference in China, India, and Turkey (and obviously Russia) that the war should end as soon as possible, even if Ukraine has to relinquish control of some of its territory. Our new poll shows that this is also the prevailing view in Brazil, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, and South Africa,” according to the think tank’s report.
“But this does not mean people in those countries think the war in Ukraine is an occasion to push against the Western dominance of the world; this argument remains popular solely in Russia and nowhere else.”
The report is based on a public opinion poll of adults from September and October 2023, across 11 European countries, and 10 non-European countries. There was a total of 25, 266 respondents.
“Majorities in China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey believe the US and Russia are at war,” the report said.
“People in the US and Europe are joined only by those in India and Brazil in having a prevailing view that the US is not at war with Russia (though there are countries in Europe where the opposite view prevails).”
Most people in non-Western countries want Russia’s war on Ukraine to end as soon as possible even if it means Kyiv ceding territory, according to a global poll published by the European Council on Foreign Relations.
“There remains a clear preference in China, India, and Turkey (and obviously Russia) that the war should end as soon as possible, even if Ukraine has to relinquish control of some of its territory. Our new poll shows that this is also the prevailing view in Brazil, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, and South Africa,” according to the think tank’s report.
“But this does not mean people in those countries think the war in Ukraine is an occasion to push against the Western dominance of the world; this argument remains popular solely in Russia and nowhere else.”
The report is based on a public opinion poll of adults from September and October 2023, across 11 European countries, and 10 non-European countries. There was a total of 25, 266 respondents.
“Majorities in China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey believe the US and Russia are at war,” the report said.
“People in the US and Europe are joined only by those in India and Brazil in having a prevailing view that the US is not at war with Russia (though there are countries in Europe where the opposite view prevails).”
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