The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[RD2003]

Please read a fucking book.

Are you denying that this has happened?

 

[Dystopiary]

Are you denying that this has happened?

Ukrainians are allowed to speak Russian ffs - the language ban is a myth/bullshit, though many Ukrainians are understandably now switching to not doing speaking it.

 

[RD2003]

Ukrainians are allowed to speak Russian ffs - the language ban is a myth/bullshit, though many Ukrainians are understandably now switching to not doing speaking it.

With no pressure applied whatsover... It's the suppression of the Russian language in schools and officialdom that gave Russia one of its excuses to intervene.

'The Ukrainian people' are not one united entity, any more than people anywhere elese, including in war zones.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

And the alternative is to shrug shoulders and what, say Ukraine deserved the invasion and senseless mass murder and you're on your own because of neoliberalism?

Thats not my position at all and I think its very daft to automatically leap to that conclusion.

 

[strung out]

Does that include the suppression of the Russian language that most Ukrainians have spoken for longer than they have Ukrainian?

As Dystopiary says, it's a myth that there's a Russian language ban in Ukraine. Most Ukrainians speak Ukrainian as their first language though something like 67% in the 2001 census), and they have done going back to at least 1897 (Russian Imperial census figures), when 73% of the people in what is now modern Ukraine spoke Ukrainian as their first language, while only 11% stated it was Russian.

 

[RD2003]

As Dystopiary says, it's a myth that there's a Russian language ban in Ukraine. Most Ukrainians speak Ukrainian as their first language though, and they have done going back to at least 1897 (Russian Imperial census figures), when 73% of the people in what is now modern Ukraine spoke Ukrainian as their first language, while only 11% stated it was Russian.

Whatever the census said, it was not the case in practice, at least as recently as 1997, when I was there, and for some time afterwards. Wherever I went, from Lviv, through Kiev, to Odessa, I never met anybody who spoke anything other than Russian. Most people didn't even understand Ukrainian.

I also know a number of Soviet-raised Ukrainians here, and have done for over 20 years. They slowly became more anti-Russian as time went on after previously differentiating hardly at all, but none of them understood Ukrainian. A couple of them seem to have learned a bit now, however.

 

[Dystopiary]

Sorry this infographic is a tad blurry, might be difficult to pick up with reader software/apps. I'd appreciate it if anyone could post a clearer version:



Dietmar Pichler on thread reader on some most-repeated myths about Ukraine:



(As I said above, I'd argue that it's political in that some Ukrainians have been choosing to switch to Ukrainian instead due to the long history of colonialism, and that is part of the resistance to Russian hegemony.)

 

[Dystopiary]

There's a whole wikipedia article on Ukrainian language policiy. I'm not going to pick through it, nor try to verify any associated links; it's all there for anyone who wants to do that:

Language policy in Ukraine - Wikipedia

 

[strung out]

Whatever the census said, it was not the case in practice, at least as recently as 1997, when I was there, and for some time afterwards. Wherever I went, from Lviv, through Kiev, to Odessa, I never met anybody who spoke anything other than Russian. Most people didn't even understand Ukrainian.

I also know a number of Soviet-raised Ukrainians here, and have done for over 20 years. They slowly became more anti-Russian as time went on after previously differentiating hardly at all, but none of them understood Ukrainian. A couple of them seem to have learned a bit now, however.

Sorry, I forgot about your gap year experience.

 

[RD2003]

Sorry this infographic is a tad blurry, might be difficult to pick up with reader software/apps. I'd appreciate it if anyone could post a clearer version:

View attachment 362530

Dietmar Pichler on thread reader on some most-repeated myths about Ukraine:

View attachment 362531

(As I said above, I'd argue that it's political in that some Ukrainians have been choosing to switch to Ukrainian instead due to the long history of colonialism, and that is part of the resistance to Russian hegemony.)

Yes, but is Russian allowed in officialdom and schools?

And the long history of colonialism wasn't a mainstream issue until the nationalists got the upper-hand with the aid of the West. Right up to the invasion, large swathes of the population regarded themselves as ethnically Russian.

 

[Dystopiary]

With no pressure applied whatsover... It's the suppression of the Russian language in schools and officialdom that gave Russia one of its excuses to intervene.

'The Ukrainian people' are not one united entity, any more than people anywhere elese, including in war zones.

Russia didn't need an excuse to intervene and never has. Please look into the long history of Russian colonialism - there's a thread on Urban that has several pointers:

Russian imperialism pre-2022

 

[RD2003]

Sorry, I forgot about your gap year experience.

The only gap year I've ever had was parcelled out over five years on the strength of a voluntary redundancy payment, as I've said.

And anyway, nobody said 'gap year' back then, at least as far as I ever heard.

Anyway, are you going to tell us who these politicians you're advising on Ukraine policy are, and what feedback they give you?

 

[RD2003]

Russia didn't need an excuse to intervene and never has. Please look into the long history of Russian colonialism - there's a thread on Urban that has several pointers:

Russian imperialism pre-2022

I know there's a long history of Russian colonialism. As I said, it wasn't a mainstream issue until the nationalists were pushed to the fore with the aid of the west.

 

[Dystopiary]

I know there's a long history of Russian colonialism. As I said, it wasn't a mainstream issue until the nationalists were pushed to the fore with the aid of the west.

And you arrived at this "knowledge" from reading and listening to Ukrainians, including those living in Ukraine in the last decade did you?
It's been an undercurrent in Ukraine for generations.
The people who I know are no longer speaking Russian are not doing it because of nationalists.
I know you don't support Putin and his war, I find the "Putinbot" accusations a bit daft, but you do use very similar talking points to those with a pro-Kremlin agenda.

 

[JimW]

Is it right that Ukrainian is the only language of instruction in state schools now? A similar policy shift in Inner Mongolia imposing Mandarin has been very controversial, and rightly so IMO.

 

[Dystopiary]

Is it right that Ukrainian is the only language of instruction in state schools now? A similar policy shift in Inner Mongolia imposing Mandarin has been very controversial, and rightly so IMO.

I don't know. I'll try to find out. Except obviously in the occupied regions: Russia has eliminated all classes taught in Ukrainian since its annexation of Crimea (from four years ago). The Crimean Tatar language - classed as severely endangered - is also surpressed: Russia uses threats & intimidation to drive Crimean Tatar language out of schools in occupied Crimea

 

[JimW]

I don't know. I'll try to find out. Except obviously in the occupied regions: Russia has eliminated all classes taught in Ukrainian since its annexation of Crimea (from four years ago). The Crimean Tatar language - classed as severely endangered - is also surpressed: Russia uses threats & intimidation to drive Crimean Tatar language out of schools in occupied Crimea

View attachment 362541

I couldn't find a clear answer, seems to be the case based on one link I saw, with exceptions for minority languages like the Tatars but not for Russian: Schools in Ukraine scrap Russian language from their curricula | FairPlanet (doesn't seem to be a loon site at a quick glance). You can see how the desire to consolidate the nation might lead you there, hardly the only country to do this sort of thing, but these sort of top-down measures aren't right.

 

[Dystopiary]

I couldn't find a clear answer, seems to be the case based on one link I saw, with exceptions for minority languages like the Tatars but not for Russian: Schools in Ukraine scrap Russian language from their curricula | FairPlanet (doesn't seem to be a loon site at a quick glance). You can see how the desire to consolidate the nation might lead you there, hardly the only country to do this sort of thing, but these sort of top-down measures aren't right.

Thanks for the link Jim. Mixed feelings about it tbh.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Is it right that Ukrainian is the only language of instruction in state schools now? A similar policy shift in Inner Mongolia imposing Mandarin has been very controversial, and rightly so IMO.

Russian as the main or only language of instruction in secondary schools, and sometimes primary schools has been the de facto policy for generations in much of the Soviet Union and now its successor state. Irrespective of ethnicity or spoken language of the school students. Russian minorities throughout the empire always taught in Russian. Anyone else ignored or treated as second rate. The Russian Federation has no moral high ground from which to criticise Ukraine, or indeed anyone else, on this matter or any other.

A better comparison is not with Inner Mongolia now, but a potential extremely unlikely future independent Inner Mongolia where Mongolian became the language of administration. Sure, the Chinese settlers and colonists wouldn't like it. Would that give the Chinese government the right to invade?

 

[strung out]

Russian as the main or only language of instruction in secondary schools, and sometimes primary schools has been the de facto policy for generations in much of the Soviet Union and now its successor state. Irrespective of ethnicity or spoken language of the school students. Russian minorities throughout the empire always taught in Russian. Anyone else ignored or treated as second rate. The Russian Federation has no moral high ground from which to criticise Ukraine, or indeed anyone else, on this matter or any other.

A better comparison is not with Inner Mongolia now, but a potential extremely unlikely future independent Inner Mongolia where Mongolian became the language of administration. Sure, the Chinese settlers and colonists wouldn't like it. Would that give the Chinese government the right to invade?

I wonder when China might start making noises about the 'ethnically Chinese' people of outer Mongolia in Tuva, Southern Russia, and whether they should be returned to the Chinese empire.

 

[JimW]

Russian as the main or only language of instruction in secondary schools, and sometimes primary schools has been the de facto policy for generations in much of the Soviet Union and now its successor state. Irrespective of ethnicity or spoken language of the school students. Russian minorities throughout the empire always taught in Russian. Anyone else ignored or treated as second rate. The Russian Federation has no moral high ground from which to criticise Ukraine, or indeed anyone else, on this matter or any other.

A better comparison is not with Inner Mongolia now, but a potential extremely unlikely future independent Inner Mongolia where Mongolian became the language of administration. Sure, the Chinese settlers and colonists wouldn't like it. Would that give the Chinese government the right to invade?

I knew someone who get into this whataboutery and it's fucking tiresome. Pointing this out as a bad policy in no way shape or form is a justification for the criminal actions of the Russian state. Got into it because the topic came up.

 

[Dystopiary]

Oof, thought this a bit, um, simplistic though:

The language problem has been behind the conflict in Donbas, where several areas proclaimed separation from Ukraine in March 2014, following the nationalistic Supreme Rada ruling to forbid the use of the Russian language in public life.

Nothing to do with the Kremlin then...

 

[JimW]

Oof, thought this a bit, um, simplistic though:



Nothing to do with the Kremlin then...

Oh, so maybe they are loon then, though notice it was written by a Russian correspondent.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I knew someone who get into this whataboutery and it's fucking tiresome. Pointing this out as a bad policy in no way shape or form is a justification for the criminal actions of the Russian state. Got into it because the topic came up.

Didn't mean to upset you old bean. It's just that this stuff gets wheeled out by people who do use it as a justification or excuse for the invasion. Or see it as a provocation. And who exaggerate and distort the practice on the ground. I find that fucking tiresome as well.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I wonder when China might start making noises about the 'ethnically Chinese' people of outer Mongolia in Tuva, Southern Russia, and whether they should be returned to the Chinese empire.

Indeed. If Russia continues to decline, quite possible some time or other.

 

[JimW]

Those sort of comments already get made below the line and don't get suppressed. WeChat regularly pushes blog posts about disputed border regions north south and west that we are assured are really China or want to be.

 

[RD2003]

And you arrived at this "knowledge" from reading and listening to Ukrainians, including those living in Ukraine in the last decade did you?
It's been an undercurrent in Ukraine for generations.
The people who I know are no longer speaking Russian are not doing it because of nationalists.
I know you don't support Putin and his war, I find the "Putinbot" accusations a bit daft, but you do use very similar talking points to those with a pro-Kremlin agenda.

Yes, an undercurrent and, like I said, not a mainstream issue. Once it became mainstream the road to war was laid.

Those Ukrainians I referred to, hailing from different parts of Ukraine, west and east, were not nationalists, but they were influenced by the growing nationalist agenda, not least because those they were in touch with back home were also being heavily subjected to it. In the early-mid 2000s they hardly differentiated between themselves and Russians. By 2015 they were barely speaking to those Russians who were previously their good friends.

 

[Dystopiary]

Yes, an undercurrent and, like I said, not a mainstream issue. Once it became mainstream the road to war was laid.

Look, I'm never gonna agree that this was part of the reason for the invasion. There's no point going round in circles here. Not very Urban I know, but I'm too tired to keep arguing the toss about this when it seems pretty fruitless to do so.

 

[RD2003]

Look, I'm never gonna agree that this was part of the reason for the invasion. There's no point going round in circles here. Not very Urban I know, but I'm too tired to keep arguing the toss about this when it seems pretty fruitless to do so.

It's nothing particularly controversial. Without Ukrainian nationalism being propelled to power, Russia would have had neither the excuse nor (as the nationalists in and out of government there see it) the reason to intervene. It was, as we've seen, inevitable given how the latter view Ukraine.

 

[Dystopiary]