The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[RD2003]

Russian as the main or only language of instruction in secondary schools, and sometimes primary schools has been the de facto policy for generations in much of the Soviet Union and now its successor state. Irrespective of ethnicity or spoken language of the school students. Russian minorities throughout the empire always taught in Russian. Anyone else ignored or treated as second rate. The Russian Federation has no moral high ground from which to criticise Ukraine, or indeed anyone else, on this matter or any other.

A better comparison is not with Inner Mongolia now, but a potential extremely unlikely future independent Inner Mongolia where Mongolian became the language of administration. Sure, the Chinese settlers and colonists wouldn't like it. Would that give the Chinese government the right to invade?

As we've been seeing, the Russian rulers don't give a toss about the moral high ground even if they might use it in propaganda. The point is that they see Ukraine as off-limits for the west, just as the US has traditionally seen Latin America as off-limits for outside influence and even domestic radicalism, however moderate. They also see it is as the frontier (which is what the word Ukraine means in Russian), and the birthplace of the Russian state.

In reality, what matters is not what should be but what is.

 

[The39thStep]

As Dystopiary says, it's a myth that there's a Russian language ban in Ukraine. Most Ukrainians speak Ukrainian as their first language though something like 67% in the 2001 census), and they have done going back to at least 1897 (Russian Imperial census figures), when 73% of the people in what is now modern Ukraine spoke Ukrainian as their first language, while only 11% stated it was Russian.

If only there was more back and white and less grey.

Is this the same Ukraine that introduced legislation that where officials of public authorities and local governments who communicate in Russian are fined? Where shops, restaurants and the service industry must engage customers in Ukrainian. Only at the request of the client can he or she can be served in another language. Again the penalty is a fine.

The legislation was described by Council of Europe advisers as failing to strike a fair balance between promoting the Ukrainian language and safeguarding minorities’ linguistic rights. It stated that “historical oppression of Ukrainian ... may lead to the adoption of positive measures aimed at promoting Ukrainian, but this cannot justify depriving the Russian language and its speakers of the protection granted to other languages…”

 

[krtek a houby]

Thats not my position at all and I think its very daft to automatically leap to that conclusion.

It's a bit daft to suggest people here support neoliberalism because they oppose Putin and his murderous invasion. Would you not have the Ukrainian people defend themselves?

 

[Raheem]

It's a bit daft to suggest people here support neoliberalism because they oppose Putin and his murderous invasion. Would you not have the Ukrainian people defend themselves?

They're not defending themselves, though are they? They're defending NATO and the EU and cancel culture and pride flags. The survivors will eventually understand that.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

It's a bit daft to suggest people here support neoliberalism because they oppose Putin and his murderous invasion. Would you not have the Ukrainian people defend themselves?

I've no problem with the The Ukrainian people fighting back, but I've got no love for the Ukrainian ruling class and it's state.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I've no problem with the The Ukrainian people fighting back, but I've got no love for the Ukrainian ruling class and it's state.

I'm glad that's been cleared up.

 

[krtek a houby]

I've no problem with the The Ukrainian people fighting back, but I've got no love for the Ukrainian ruling class and it's state.

And who here has love for the Ukrainian ruling class and its state?

If the British government and its armies decided to invade Ireland, would you be ok with the people defending the country, or would you be complaining that overwhelming international support of the resistance means support for Varadakar/Martin?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I see last October that STW and CND held a rally that featured Yurii Sheliazhenko of the “Ukrainian Pacifist Movement”. That immediately raised an eye brow for me and I did a quick Google. Only thing I found was this article which claims amongst other things that:

• the UPM has only 3 members
• last april Sheliazhenko spoke at a meeting called “Ukraine: Truth and Lies. Was the massacre of over 700 civilians at Bucha perpetrated by the Ukrainian National Police and the Safari Unit and Azov Battalion?” Other guests included David Miller and Chris Williamson
• Sheliazhenko has made several comments blaming Zelensky, not Putin for the invasion
• the President of the UPM 3 man band has made antisemitic comments about Jews being behind communism

The claim about the meeting is true, but I could not verify the other claims made in the article. Does anybody know more about Sheliazhenko and UPM? They seem highly suspect.

(Edit, the antisemitism stuff appears to be true Ruslan Kotsaba - Wikipedia)

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Yeah, what a surprise. The STW and CND token Ukrainian is a Putin propagandist and not even a remotely subtle one

 

[AnnaKarpik]

Oof, thought this a bit, um, simplistic though:



Nothing to do with the Kremlin then...

That law was passed. It's a matter of record. It was also repealed pretty damn quick but the damage was already done; the east felt short-changed by Kiev already, imagine how thinking about suppressing the language and massacring a few dozen Russophones (Odessa) went down.

 

[LDC]

I see last October that STW and CND held a rally that featured Yurii Sheliazhenko of the “Ukrainian Pacifist Movement”. That immediately raised an eye brow for me and I did a quick Google. Only thing I found was this article which claims amongst other things that:

• the UPM has only 3 members
• last april Sheliazhenko spoke at a meeting called “Ukraine: Truth and Lies. Was the massacre of over 700 civilians at Bucha perpetrated by the Ukrainian National Police and the Safari Unit and Azov Battalion?” Other guests included David Miller and Chris Williamson
• Sheliazhenko has made several comments blaming Zelensky, not Putin for the invasion
• the President of the UPM 3 man band has made antisemitic comments about Jews being behind communism

The claim about the meeting is true, but I could not verify the other claims made in the article. Does anybody know more about Sheliazhenko and UPM? They seem highly suspect.

(Edit, the antisemitism stuff appears to be true Ruslan Kotsaba - Wikipedia)

No more than you've said already, he's suddenly (in the last year) gone from being a isolated loon that nobody pays any attention to, to a speaker and representative of Ukraine for the Western 'anti-war/anti-imperialist' movement. All those organisations he promotes himself as being part of/president are just also one man bands pretty much.

He's been quoted and pushed by the like of StW and CND and others (even some NWBTCW folks rather hilariously/tragically) as he's pretty much the only person you can find in Ukraine with views like that.

 

[strung out]

massacring a few dozen Russophones (Odessa) went down.

 

[Pickman's model]

And who here has love for the Ukrainian ruling class and its state?

If the British government and its armies decided to invade Ireland, would you be ok with the people defending the country, or would you be complaining that overwhelming international support of the resistance means support for Varadakar/Martin?

He'd be crying about the rebels, cuddling his teddy bear in bed

 

[krtek a houby]

He'd be crying about the rebels, cuddling his teddy bear in bed

He referenced Dana recently, so he could be old school. Unless its just a brilliant disguise...

Claiming those who are opposed to the invasion, and subsewuent horror show playing out are somehow supportive of neoliberalism etc is disingenous & dont know why it gains any traction here?

 

[Pickman's model]

He referenced Dana recently, so he could be old school. Unless its just a brilliant disguise...

Claiming those who are opposed to the invasion, and subsewuent horror show playing out are somehow supportive of neoliberalism etc is disingenous & dont know why it gains any traction here?

He'd be giving it the large about the bourgeois nature of the brehon laws

 

[belboid]

42 dead is a few dozen. There's no denying that the firebombing of the TU building was an appalling act.

 

[strung out]

42 dead is a few dozen. There's no denying that the firebombing of the TU building was an appalling act.

The way the post post was worded implied that Kyiv had something to do with it.

"the east felt short-changed by Kiev already, imagine how thinking about suppressing the language and massacring a few dozen Russophones (Odessa) went down"

And as far as I'm aware, the exact cause of the fire was never established given both sides were throwing Molotov cocktails. Clearly it was utterly tragic though.

 

[The39thStep]

I see last October that STW and CND held a rally that featured Yurii Sheliazhenko of the “Ukrainian Pacifist Movement”. That immediately raised an eye brow for me and I did a quick Google. Only thing I found was this article which claims amongst other things that:

• the UPM has only 3 members
• last april Sheliazhenko spoke at a meeting called “Ukraine: Truth and Lies. Was the massacre of over 700 civilians at Bucha perpetrated by the Ukrainian National Police and the Safari Unit and Azov Battalion?” Other guests included David Miller and Chris Williamson
• Sheliazhenko has made several comments blaming Zelensky, not Putin for the invasion
• the President of the UPM 3 man band has made antisemitic comments about Jews being behind communism

The claim about the meeting is true, but I could not verify the other claims made in the article. Does anybody know more about Sheliazhenko and UPM? They seem highly suspect.

(Edit, the antisemitism stuff appears to be true Ruslan Kotsaba - Wikipedia)

I think LDC brought most of this up months ago tbh. . None of this of course should deflect from the fact that whether there is a conscientious objectors movement or not that many have fled Ukraine to avoid being summonsed in the early months of 2022 and despite the closure of Ukrainian borders for males that their Ukraine border forces are still arresting young males trying to cross the border.
Internally there are those who don't want to fight, for all sorts of reasons. As one would expect, there is accompanying legislation including summons to court with sanctions of fines and imprisonment. In some cases, those who are tracked down, are physically detained and taken to the army.

 

[LDC]

I think LDC brought most of this up months ago tbh. . None of this of course should deflect from the fact that whether there is a conscientious objectors movement or not that many have fled Ukraine to avoid being summonsed in the early months of 2022 and despite the closure of Ukrainian borders for males that their Ukraine border forces are still arresting young males trying to cross the border.
Internally there are those who don't want to fight, for all sorts of reasons. As one would expect, there is accompanying legislation including summons to court with sanctions of fines and imprisonment. In some cases, those who are tracked down, are physically detained and taken to the army.

Simon Pirani (People and Nature) said that 3 of his friends in Ukraine had each taken a different decision about what to do, "one to fight, one to leave, and one to stay and not fight", and that he thought they were all the right decision. (Not his exact words so apologies if not quite right, but was thereabouts.)

 

[Jeff Robinson]

These stances, needless to say, have enraged the STWC clique and the Putinist “left”:

 

[Dogsauce]

Subcomandante Marcos is batting for Ukraine. At least one former leftist hero hasn’t gone soft for Putin’s authoritarian kleptocracy on spurious ‘anti imperialism’ grounds.

 

[LDC]

Russian socialists say: ‘War on war!’

A statement by the Russian Socialist Movement group in emigration, on the nature of the war in Ukraine and the delusions of Western “pacifists” For a year now, Vladimir Putin’s regime has been kill…

peopleandnature.wordpress.com

 

[ska invita]

.

 

[ska invita]

Big article arguing the nwbcw case here:

British Anarchism Succumbs to War Fever

A polemic against the wave of militarism seen across the anarchist movement in Britain since the Russian invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.

libcom.org

From a quick skim, it looks fairly thoughtful and well-argued, although I still couldn't help noticing, when they get on to the practical suggestions bit:

Since I'm fairly sure that BOAK and Solidarity Collectives both have the position that the author is arguing against, not sure what that means in terms of political differences?

it is interesting, agree with most of it.

But not this key bit:

“Anarchists have taken to defence of their homeland,”8 announced the editor of AFed’s magazine, Organise!, in issue #96. What homeland do anarchists have? The ‘homeland’ is a sentimental notion of the nation-state in which a person is born"
- etc.

I'm no nationalist, but i recognise localities as meaningful places. You dont have to be a nationalist, or even acknowledge the legitimacy of nation-states, to find your locality a meaningful place to you, and one worth defending from fascistic invaders.

We do live in a world carved up by competing nation-states and no matter how profoundly you may see them all as illegitimate, you are entitled to decide that it is better to live within one political system than that of an invading totalitarian, dictatorial system.

Personally I wouldn't take up arms to fight off invaders, I would run away and seek nonviolent way to change things, but if anarchists or anyone else is not pacifistically driven then I dont think fighting back is automatically driven by nationalist sentiment, though I would imagine it is definitely easy to get wrapped up in the national flag once such a commitment is made.

"To assert the necessity of participating in national defence and joining the state military is to accept the necessity of the state. Assembly lament that “the majority of those who identify themselves as anarchists in Ukraine […] immediately merged with the ruling class in a single nationalist impulse.”10 The state’s power over life and death, war and peace, is one of its defining aspects – it is for anarchists to criticise and subvert, not fall back on as a necessary evil."

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

so not a "better the devil you know" type of person I guess

 

[LDC]

Some on the 'left' in Spain have also taken sides.

Eight Spaniards arrested after returning from combat in Ukraine

The detainees are suspected to have fought alongside pro-Russian forces They are facing charges of homicide and possession of arms and explosives

english.elpais.com

 

[The39thStep]

Some on the 'left' in Spain have also taken sides.

Eight Spaniards arrested after returning from combat in Ukraine

The detainees are suspected to have fought alongside pro-Russian forces They are facing charges of homicide and possession of arms and explosives

english.elpais.com

Didn't some Greek anarchists fight on the separatist side and then opened a 'People’s Republic of Donetsk' office in Exarchia?

 

[mojo pixy]

Some on the 'left' in Spain have also taken sides.

Eight Spaniards arrested after returning from combat in Ukraine

The detainees are suspected to have fought alongside pro-Russian forces They are facing charges of homicide and possession of arms and explosives

english.elpais.com

A group of Spaniards who define themselves as “anti-capitalists” told news agency Europa Press last September that they had traveled to eastern Ukraine to fight alongside pro-Russian separatists to combat the “resurgence of the Fourth Reich in Europe.”

Anti-caps who fear a 'fourth reich'? Guaranteed conspiraloons - of the kind Putin's Russia has been (sometimes officially, sometimes not) encouraging and reinforcing for years. Actually the conspiraloon angle is one of the best reasons for non-russians to oppose this current russian regime atm. Nothing good can come from a russian victory, that's for sure.

 

[LDC]

Didn't some Greek anarchists fight on the separatist side and then opened a 'People’s Republic of Donetsk' office in Exarchia?

No idea, but it wouldn't be a surprise at all.

Some Greek anarchists and communists also went very weird in the pandemic, ended up very anti-vaccine and lockdowns. That fringe bit of anarchism that's individualist and/or insurrectionism obsessed has clear potential to end up on dodgy political ground/barking mad.

 

[The39thStep]

No idea, but it wouldn't be a surprise at all.

Some Greek anarchists and communists also went very weird in the pandemic, ended up very anti-vaccine and lockdowns. That fringe bit of anarchism that's individualist and/or insurrectionism obsessed has clear potential to end up on dodgy political ground/barking mad.

I only found out about it a few years ago when we had the confinements/lock downs when I was googling for Paul Masons company