The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[krtek a houby]

There are those on here who will vote for Starmer and Biden and who give their support to the Ukrainian state and the millionaire Zelensky - they are therefore supporting neoliberalism, thats simply a fact.

Doubt it. Defending a country from a heinous warmonger doesn't necessarily equate to support for neoliberalism.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

One man’s support for Neo-Liberalism is another man’s opposition to Authoritarianism.
A pox on both of their houses, but if I had to choose…

 

[The39thStep]

One man’s support for Neo-Liberalism is another man’s opposition to Authoritarianism.
A pox on both of their houses, but if I had to choose…

neither is inherently opposed to the other

 

[Magnus McGinty]

neither is inherently opposed to the other

Fair point.

 

[RD2003]

One man’s support for Neo-Liberalism is another man’s opposition to Authoritarianism.
A pox on both of their houses, but if I had to choose…

The radical left probably needs a dose of authoritarianism to get its act together.

After all, they've really cunted it up during neo-liberalism.

 

[krtek a houby]

The radical left probably needs a dose of authoritarianism to get its act together.

Sure you actually believe that.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Doubt it. Defending a country from a heinous warmonger doesn't necessarily equate to support for neoliberalism.

Supporting the likes of Zelensky/or any neoliberal state (such as the Ukrainian state) is supporting neoliberalism.

 

[strung out]

Supporting the likes of Zelensky/or any neoliberal state (such as the Ukrainian state) is supporting neoliberalism.

I support the Ukrainian people who are getting murdered in their thousands by the Russian imperialist state.

In practice that means entrusting the Ukrainian state with the means to coordinate and disseminate that support to those best placed to defend the Ukrainian people.

 

[LDC]

Supporting the likes of Zelensky/or any neoliberal state (such as the Ukrainian state) is supporting neoliberalism.

Define support? Is anyone resisting and/or fighting against the Russian invasion & occupation supporting Ukraine and neoliberalism?

E2A: Ah, I think he has me on ignore.

 

[RD2003]

I support the Ukrainian people who are getting murdered in their thousands by the Russian imperialist state.

In practice that means entrusting the Ukrainian state with the means to coordinate and disseminate that support to those best placed to defend the Ukrainian people.

In what way are you personally supporting them?

 

[LDC]

In what way are you personally supporting them?

Indeed, I think this term 'support' that gets thrown around by all sides is meaningless pretty much unless you're actively doing something and/or providing material aid.

 

[RD2003]

Indeed, I think this term 'support' that gets thrown around by all sides is meaningless pretty much unless you're actively doing something and/or providing material aid.

My brother-in-law has driven ex-ambulances full of medical and other supplies to Ukraine twice. I'd call that supporting them.

 

[LDC]

My brother-in-law has driven ex-ambulances full of medical and other supplies to Ukraine twice. I'd call that supporting them.

Would you count that as supporting the war, given it almost certainly is helping the Ukrainian State and likely some aid will go to the military?

I don't mean that as a gotta question, but as mentioned elsewhere I argued recently with someone who took the line that no material aid should go to Ukraine as it does support them, and will prolong the war.

I mean it's the logical conclusion of some of the NWBTCW/revolutionary defeatism stuff isn't it?

 

[RD2003]

Would you count that as supporting the war, given it almost certainly is helping the Ukrainian State and likely some aid will go to the military?

I don't mean that as a gotta question, but as mentioned elsewhere I argued recently with someone who took the line that no material aid should go to Ukraine as it does support them, and will prolong the war.

I mean it's the logical conclusion of some of the NWBTCW/revolutionary defeatism stuff isn't it?

Dunno about it being the logical conclusion, but I'm far from being against people in war zones receiving humanitarian aid.

 

[LDC]

Dunno about it being the logical conclusion, but I'm far from being against people in war zones receiving humanitarian aid.

Yes, I'd have hoped. The argument I had ended up with them refusing to support any independent initiatives, but only official NGOs (Red Cross etc.) as they made sure nothing went to any military or military related usage.

 

[RD2003]

Yes, I'd have hoped. The argument I had ended up with them refusing to support any independent initiatives, but only official NGOs (Red Cross etc.) as they made sure nothing went to any military or military related usage.

Don't know where the stuff I mentioned ended up, and I doubt if b-i-l knows either, but personally I'm not against the military on both sides receiving medical supplies from abroad.

I regard the whole thing as an avoidable tragedy.

 

[LDC]

Don't know where the stuff I mentioned ended up, and I doubt if b-i-l knows either, but personally I'm not against the military on both sides receiving medical supplies from abroad.

I regard the whole thing as an avoidable tragedy.

I regard much of society as it is now as an avoidable tragedy tbf.

 

[strung out]

In what way are you personally supporting them?

Donating money to aid and relief for displaced Ukrainians fleeing the war, and encouraging/asking politicians (i.e. those who can actually provide military aid to those defending Ukrainian people) to provide as much military support as possible to end this sorry war sooner rather than later.

Though my post was in response to AmateurAgitator who was the one accusing people of supporting Zelenskyy and the neoliberal Ukrainian state, so perhaps he can outline how he thinks people are doing that from his point of view.

 

[RD2003]

Donating money to aid and relief for displaced Ukrainians fleeing the war, and encouraging/asking politicians (i.e. those who can actually provide military aid to those defending Ukrainian people) to provide as much military support as possible to end this sorry war sooner rather than later.

Though my post was in response to AmateurAgitator who was the one accusing people of supporting Zelenskyy and the neoliberal Ukrainian state, so perhaps he can outline how he thinks people are doing that from his point of view.

Which politicians are you asking, and through what channels?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Strongly worded letter to local MP.

 

[strung out]

Strongly worded letter to local MP.

Sadly I couldn't get the time off work to strap on my airsoft gear and head on over for a bit of the action myself.

 

[strung out]

Which politicians are you asking, and through what channels?

Neither the politicians nor channels that would be acceptable to you, I'm sure.

 

[RD2003]

Neither the politicians nor channels that would be acceptable to you, I'm sure.

Genuinely interested. Who are they? Do they get back in touch?

 

[krtek a houby]

Supporting the likes of Zelensky/or any neoliberal state (such as the Ukrainian state) is supporting neoliberalism.

And the alternative is to shrug shoulders and what, say Ukraine deserved the invasion and senseless mass murder and you're on your own because of neoliberalism?

 

[The39thStep]

Supporting the likes of Zelensky/or any neoliberal state (such as the Ukrainian state) is supporting neoliberalism.

I contribute to supporting children of Ukrainian refugees here and have donated money for generators and heaters for people in Ukraine but don't support Zelensky.

 

[CNT36]

I contribute to supporting children of Ukrainian refugees here and have donated money for generators and heaters for people in Ukraine but don't support Zelensky.

Easy there Milton.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Some real smooth brain tweeting from Lindsey A German here

 

[Dystopiary]

I'm feeling so angry I've been finding it difficult to articulate anything worthwhile.

I'll just say that those anarchists and socialists who've been forced to make a massive life choice, who've had relatives, colleagues and old friends tortured, raped and murdered, whose home villages have been ripped to shreds, whose entire culture, language and traditions are under threat, who have stayed to fight for survival, need support and solidarity, not being mocked and written off as "supporting neoliberalism." I stand with those people and against imperialism.

And linguicide is just one component of colonialism, it's been shown to be strongly associated with long-lasting mental health problems and generational trauma. It's not supporting borders or nationalism to state that forcibly destroying people's culture destroys people. This is the aim. I don't say it lightly: what the Russian state is doing is genocidal.

 

[RD2003]

I'm feeling so angry I've been finding it difficult to articulate anything worthwhile.

I'll just say that those anarchists and socialists who've been forced to make a massive life choice, who've had relatives, colleagues and old friends tortured, raped and murdered, whose home villages have been ripped to shreds, whose entire culture, language and traditions are under threat, who have stayed to fight for survival, need support and solidarity, not being mocked and written off as "supporting neoliberalism." I stand with those people and against imperialism.

And linguicide is just one component of colonialism, it's been shown to be strongly associated with long-lasting mental health problems and generational trauma. It's not supporting borders or nationalism to state that forcibly destroying people's culture destroys people. This is the aim. I don't say it lightly: what the Russian state is doing is genocidal.

Does that include the suppression of the Russian language that most Ukrainians have spoken for longer than they have Ukrainian?

 

[Dystopiary]

Does that include the suppression of the Russian language that most Ukrainians have spoken for longer than they have Ukrainian?

Please read a fucking book.