The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?
- Thread starter hitmouse
- Start date
It's not my own portrayal of him at all, I was simply expaining the author's view at the time of writing the article.
spitfire
Minister for Balloons (retd.)
Fair enough, I'll retract my mention of your name but will leave the post up as it needs pointing out, too many people believe this stuff.
charlie mowbray
The Enforcer
Guderian was a rat, he informed on his fellow generals to the Allies, to get himself off the hook, and in private conversations after the war affirmed that he still believed in National Socialism. ALL the Wehrmacht generals were complicit in horrendous war crimes, the Wehrmacht was not something honourable and just, that maintained a certain distance from the Nazi regime. He should have been shot or hanged, but like so many others was allowed by the Allies to continue to operate ( with Guderian a short spell in prison until 1948).
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Just like speer and his attempts to make out he had had a distance from the activities, the crimes, of the Hitler regime - just an architect my arse
hitmouse
Did do all Google car mistakes
On the actual content of the article: "A chancellor misplaces £5 million in tax and the BBC favours a friend of the PM here, while a deputy leader and a minister in Ukraine siphon off international aid. Is either such a contrast to Putin’s kleptocratic dictatorship?"
If I was being harsh, I might suggest that makes it sound a bit like the main problem with Putin is he doesn't pay his taxes; even trying to be non-snidey about it, I think that question is one where there is a real fault line, where the likes of the ACG/ACN would answer no, but the majority within the Russian, Belarusian and Ukrainian anarchist movements would tend to answer yes, that there is a real and significant difference between UK or Ukrainian style corrupt kleptocratic neoliberalism and Russian-style corrupt kleptocratic dictatorship.
I keep on meaning to write something lengthy over on the "not a member of an anarchist organisation" thread, cos it isn't certainly the only reason, but it is one reason why I probably wouldn't qualify for membership of any of the current UK anarchist communist groups.
If I was being harsh, I might suggest that makes it sound a bit like the main problem with Putin is he doesn't pay his taxes; even trying to be non-snidey about it, I think that question is one where there is a real fault line, where the likes of the ACG/ACN would answer no, but the majority within the Russian, Belarusian and Ukrainian anarchist movements would tend to answer yes, that there is a real and significant difference between UK or Ukrainian style corrupt kleptocratic neoliberalism and Russian-style corrupt kleptocratic dictatorship.
I keep on meaning to write something lengthy over on the "not a member of an anarchist organisation" thread, cos it isn't certainly the only reason, but it is one reason why I probably wouldn't qualify for membership of any of the current UK anarchist communist groups.
Yeah I thought that was basically not even really poor political analysis or an analysis I disagree with, it's just not factually true at all, as there are significant and important differences between those things.
spitfire
Minister for Balloons (retd.)
This is interesting. Second half relates to their work for Ukraine. First half explores a Leftist analysis of US gun culture and their approach to it.
I've misplaced the Twitter account I got it from, sorry. Opened it to read it and then didn't get a chance till later so my TL had moved on, the way it does.
161crew.bzzz.net
I've misplaced the Twitter account I got it from, sorry. Opened it to read it and then didn't get a chance till later so my TL had moved on, the way it does.
Yellow Peril Tactical interview - 161 CREW
"People in Ukraine really don't want to live under the Russian boot..." - interview with Yellow Peril Tactical.
161crew.bzzz.net
ska invita
back on the other side
That is interesting. I guess it's inevitable in the US that there will be a left gun club culture, but it's depressing nonetheless, however much it's dressed up as 'community self defence'.This is interesting. Second half relates to their work for Ukraine. First half explores a Leftist analysis of US gun culture and their approach to it.
I've misplaced the Twitter account I got it from, sorry. Opened it to read it and then didn't get a chance till later so my TL had moved on, the way it does.
Yellow Peril Tactical interview - 161 CREW
"People in Ukraine really don't want to live under the Russian boot..." - interview with Yellow Peril Tactical.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
I can't help feeling that the outcomes for left wing combatants in the Spanish Civil War (or Rojava) might have been slightly worse without guns.
There are a shit tonne of guns in America and the far right there are well into them. So "a left gun club culture" seems like an entirely pragmatic response to the depressingly widespread nature of firearms.
There are a shit tonne of guns in America and the far right there are well into them. So "a left gun club culture" seems like an entirely pragmatic response to the depressingly widespread nature of firearms.
hitmouse
Did do all Google car mistakes
Big article arguing the nwbcw case here:
libcom.org
From a quick skim, it looks fairly thoughtful and well-argued, although I still couldn't help noticing, when they get on to the practical suggestions bit:
British Anarchism Succumbs to War Fever
A polemic against the wave of militarism seen across the anarchist movement in Britain since the Russian invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.
ska invita
back on the other side
i think it perpetuates gun culture, right at a point where state violence and gun ownership is under some real pressure
all an extension of US militarisation of society
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
You don't even have to go outside the United States to find examples
This nonviolent stuff'll get you killed - Charles Cobb
Civil rights scholar Charles E. Cobb Jr. describes the vital role that armed self-defense played in the survival and liberation of black communities in America during the Southern Freedom Movement of the 1960s.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
That's also true. I just don't think far right groups with guns can be defeated (or even contained) purely by fists and clever memes, lamentable though that is.
Dystopiary
Left lyrics in the practice room
The brief mention of railway sabotage in Belarus seem almost flippant to me - has this actually happened since spring last year? At least two of the guys who were arrested in April got deliberately shot in the knees. Then in May Luka introduced a law to extend the scope of the death penalty to apply for "attempted terrorism." Last December three men were sentenced to 21 - 23 years. Last Month a man who had been one of those arrested and shot in his legs last April was sentenced to 13 years.Military infrastructure can be sabotaged, as has been happening on the railways connecting Russia and Belarus to Ukraine.Big article arguing the nwbcw case here:
From a quick skim, it looks fairly thoughtful and well-argued, although I still couldn't help noticing, when they get on to the practical suggestions bit:British Anarchism Succumbs to War Fever
A polemic against the wave of militarism seen across the anarchist movement in Britain since the Russian invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.
Since I'm fairly sure that BOAK and Solidarity Collectives both have the position that the author is arguing against, not sure what that means in terms of political differences?
None of this gets addressed. But yeah, "military infrastructure can be sabotaged, as has been happening on the railways connecting... Belarus to Ukraine." Would be good to have seen some acknowledgement, hey even solidarity, with those actual people, who exist as more than some nebulous legendary entity that anyone in Belarus could join if only they listened to their wise "comrades" in the West. Like being shot in the knees and being threatened with the death penalty is no big deal. If authors of these NWBTCW pieces would actually make the effort to find out how incredibly difficult it is to organise in BY perhaps they might focus more on what they could do to support anarchists/activists/political prisoners there.
Not a rant at you hitmouse, obvs, just annoyed with yet more of this dreamy Western idealism.
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hitmouse
Did do all Google car mistakes
I might be getting Russia and Belarus mixed up there, I know that rail sabotage has continued in Russia into this year (and I can't imagine dealing with the Russian state is any nicer!) but haven't been following whether it's also been ongoing on in Belarus... but yes, think we're in agreement on the point that I don't think any of the railway saboteurs have claimed NWBCW-style motivations, so it seems a bit contradictory to slag them off for having "thrown themselves behind Ukraine’s war effort" while also praising their actions as an example to follow.
Dystopiary
Left lyrics in the practice room
I don't know about Assembly, but this is someone I have a lot of respect for (thread):
screenshot of extract:
screenshot of extract:
I think that's a bit like blaming someone who left the tap on in the sink of their cabin for contributing to the sinking of the Titanic tbh.
Probably completely inappropriate but 'BOAK' did make me a grin a wee bit.Big article arguing the nwbcw case here:
From a quick skim, it looks fairly thoughtful and well-argued, although I still couldn't help noticing, when they get on to the practical suggestions bit:British Anarchism Succumbs to War Fever
A polemic against the wave of militarism seen across the anarchist movement in Britain since the Russian invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.
Since I'm fairly sure that BOAK and Solidarity Collectives both have the position that the author is arguing against, not sure what that means in terms of political differences?
In Rojava the Kurdish/SDF armed groups were definitely able to over stretch their remit and 'natural area of control/influence' (for want of a better term) due to being well armed and supported by the anti-IS coalition air power. It was all as part of an entirely pragmatic and understandable plan, but ultimately one that ended up causing all sorts of on the ground problems for them and the people in the areas they took back from IS.
My understanding of the wider struggle in Syria was that the militarisation of the struggle was both unavoidable and also a sign that it was on a losing path due to the inevitable dynamics it would then take.
But I do think armed groups as a part of wider struggles can be useful, but they're far from being without hugely complicating issues even if they are 'on our side'.
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hitmouse
Did do all Google car mistakes
Yeah, it's a tricky one - I feel like some of the early lefty gun club stuff was also part of an attempt at outreach to people outside the usual cultural/aesthetic signifiers of "the left", but that element seems to have been dropped for the most part. How you do serious gun training without falling into glorifying gun stuff is a tricky question as well. Anyway, going back to what ska said above about "state violence and gun ownership" - I think anarcho-leaning gun people would say that the debate tends to be polarised as pro-gun vs anti-gun and pro-state control, and so there's also a difficulty in having an anti-gun position that doesn't fall into saying the state - and so, in practice, the police - should be the legitimate arbiters of who gets to have guns and who doesn't.
So I suppose my overall position is "dunno, bit tricky innit?"
Yeah, there's a massive difference between left wing individuals and small groups getting weapons for limited reasons (self defence, prepping, etc.) in the current situation in the US (for example) and then armed formations in a wider struggle (anywhere else). The former is to be encouraged, the later is much more tricky and depends on all sorts of other factors as to whether it's the right thing to do. And most likely answer is that it's the wrong thing to do, but that it is unavoidable and needs to be done anyway. Sometimes there's no right answer is there, just a load of bad ones.
Think you mentioned this book Self Defense by Elsa Dorlin somewhere on here, still on my pile of 'to read':
www.versobooks.com
Think you mentioned this book Self Defense by Elsa Dorlin somewhere on here, still on my pile of 'to read':
Self-Defense
Is violent self-defense ethical? In the history of colonialism, racism, sexism, capitalism, there has long been a dividing line between bodies "worthy of defending" and those who have been disarmed and rendered defenseless. In 1685, for example, France's infamous "Code Noir" forbade slaves from...
www.versobooks.com
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Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Purity is overrated.
You don't know pragmatism when you see it
krtek a houby
Sail hatin'
Name names.
And if the community offends you that much, perhaps find one more suited to your specific needs and valuable time.
The left is not one homogeneous blob, sure you realise.
At the end of the day theres nothing at all pragmatic about supporting the ruling class and their states and NATO and the working class and anarchists will gain absolutely fuck all from doing that. But with this place theres far too many lefties and 'anarchists' who support neoliberalism and the state so it shouldn't be surprising that theres also too many warmongers.
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