War propaganda, 'Realists' and neocons, and the denigration of the war sceptics

[twistedAM]

The problem is that it's not even the side of the majority, it's the side of mainstream media. I understand it--people have limited time, and it's natural to just read the Guardian and watch the Bebe and assume you're hearing something like the truth.

The growth of the internet is a real spanner in their works, however, and you can see it in the MSM's panicked reaction. They ban the state channels of nations like Russia and Iran outright. They send armies of spooks into Facebook and Twitter. They deride any alternative outlet as the domain of conspiracy theorists, in an attempt to make it socially unacceptable to access them. Under the guise of forbidding "hate speech" they try to establish institutions that will systematically censor all speech. And so on.

Personally, I don't think it's working. For every person who (as you say) have gone over to the neocons without realizing it, there is another who's discovered other sources of news than the MSM. The split seems to be happening along class lines too, with the proles being more skeptical than the bourg. When an anti-war movement arises in the US or the UK it will be the hardhats for peace and the hippies for war--a neat inversion of the 1960s. Unluckily for us, we live in truly interesting times....

The BBC is so arrogant they even have a Disinformation correspondent. When I heard the term for the first time I thought it was someone appointed to investigate the lies and half-truths spouted by BBC journalists but it's basically a mouthpiece arguing that anyone who disagrees with the BBC line is wrong and a thoroughly nasty person

 

[phildwyer]

The BBC is so arrogant they even have a Disinformation correspondent. When I heard the term for the first time I thought it was someone appointed to investigate the lies and half-truths spouted by BBC journalists but it's basically a mouthpiece arguing that anyone who disagrees with the BBC line is wrong and a thoroughly nasty person

Yes, they have one of those in the USA too. The first Disinformation Czar they appointed was this person. I'm not kidding, it really was. They must hold the population in utter contempt if let the likes of this decide what information we're allowed to hear:

 

[Ax^]

The BBC is so arrogant they even have a Disinformation correspondent. When I heard the term for the first time I thought it was someone appointed to investigate the lies and half-truths spouted by BBC journalists but it's basically a mouthpiece arguing that anyone who disagrees with the BBC line is wrong and a thoroughly nasty person

lovely thing about the bbc atm is it daft agenda is both side of any argument complain and whine about it favouring the other side to much

 

[phildwyer]

lovely thing about the bbc atm is it daft agenda is both side of any argument complain and whine about it favouring the other side to much

bad thing is man come to bring say nasty words upset me very much other side shout daft agenda any whine about him

 

[Ax^]

bad thing is man come to bring say nasty words upset me very much other side shout daft agenda any whine about him

did he spam multiple threads with repeated lines of random nonsense

because that might of be a twat called phildwyer

 

[BigMoaner]

The problem is that it's not even the side of the majority, it's the side of mainstream media. I understand it--people have limited time, and it's natural to just read the Guardian and watch the Bebe and assume you're hearing something like the truth.

The growth of the internet is a real spanner in their works, however, and you can see it in the MSM's panicked reaction. They ban the state channels of nations like Russia and Iran outright. They send armies of spooks into Facebook and Twitter. They deride any alternative outlet as the domain of conspiracy theorists, in an attempt to make it socially unacceptable to access them. Under the guise of forbidding "hate speech" they try to establish institutions that will systematically censor all speech.

Er, do they? How does the MSM stop you accessing any deranged horseshit or alternative views you want on the internet? And if they are, they are not doing a very good job of it, you can probably find a million different takes online re the russia situation.

 

[JimW]

It's worse than that, they populate these alternative outlets with loons and conspiracy theorists just to discredit them!

 

[twistedAM]

lovely thing about the bbc atm is it daft agenda is both side of any argument complain and whine about it favouring the other side to much

Hmm, that's been the case for a while but this is setting itself up as the pedestal of truth which for once right and left can agree that it is not.

 

[phildwyer]

Er, do they? How does the MSM stop you accessing any deranged horseshit or alternative views you want on the internet? And if they are, they are not doing a very good job of it, you can probably find a million different takes online re the russia situation.

This is an example of what I mean. The FBI infiltrating pre-Musk Twitter to control its content. I guess this news didn't penetrate the UK:

 

[Ax^]

aye and the lizard people projecting visions on the moon of Saturn..

 

[phildwyer]

This war is pretty much over. Having systematically lied to its readers for the duration, the Guardian tries to break the news gently.... a "new phase" indeed:

The Ukraine war is in a new phase. Biden must rethink the US position | Stephen Wertheim

Unfortunately for the president, supporting Ukraine ‘as long as it takes’, and mostly without conditions, has reached its limits

www.theguardian.com

 

[phildwyer]

Meanwhile, the New York Times seems embittered beyond the point of reason, claiming that those darn peaceniks "view the Putin regime’s cruelty and repression as admirable features that America should emulate." Also makes the argument that defeat is actually victory in disguise.

Opinion | Why MAGA Wants to Betray Ukraine (Published 2023)

Whatever they may say, it’s not about the money.

www.nytimes.com

 

[RD2003]

This war is pretty much over. Having systematically lied to its readers for the duration, the Guardian tries to break the news gently.... a "new phase" indeed:

The Ukraine war is in a new phase. Biden must rethink the US position | Stephen Wertheim

Unfortunately for the president, supporting Ukraine ‘as long as it takes’, and mostly without conditions, has reached its limits

www.theguardian.com

This sounds like the approach of many posters on here (leaving aside the American security bit.) The 'Putin won't stop at Ukraine but will take half of Europe' stuff that dominated these boards was hysterical, not to mention hilarious.

'For Joe Biden, it is a time for choosing. His administration and its allies will be tempted to double down on the approach they have taken of late: cast the war in near-existential terms, vow to arm Kyiv “as long as it takes” and castigate opponents as extremists indifferent to Ukraine’s plight and reckless with American national security. (Indeed, some leading House Democrats were quick to deride what they dubbed the “pro-Putin caucus” and “Putin’s little helpers”.)

 

[Ax^]

did jazz not catch a ban for posting end bullshit links on the site

 

[mojo pixy]

No! that's not propaganda, it's news!

 

[phildwyer]

This sounds like the approach of many posters on here (leaving aside the American security bit.) The 'Putin won't stop at Ukraine but will take half of Europe' stuff that dominated these boards was hysterical, not to mention hilarious.

'For Joe Biden, it is a time for choosing. His administration and its allies will be tempted to double down on the approach they have taken of late: cast the war in near-existential terms, vow to arm Kyiv “as long as it takes” and castigate opponents as extremists indifferent to Ukraine’s plight and reckless with American national security. (Indeed, some leading House Democrats were quick to deride what they dubbed the “pro-Putin caucus” and “Putin’s little helpers”.)

The one encouraging result of this debacle is that American public opinion has turned decisively against the war, especially among the working-class. We may hope that they will remember this lesson next time they are asked to rally behind their government's insane aggressions.

 

[Ax^]

The one encouraging result of this debacle is that American public opinion has turned decisively against the war, especially among the working-class. We may hope that they will remember this lesson next time they are asked to rally behind their government's insane aggressions.

haha the same folk who support bush throughout Iraq

phil you are reaching

 

[jeff_leigh]

haha the same folk who support bush throughout Iraq

phil you are reaching

American public opinion was pretty much 50/50 split for the 2nd Iraq Invasion

 

[Ax^]

most Americans are not immune to flag waving jingo bullshit

but the republican voter is most affected by it and most are trump supporters

I'd trump wanted to start a war I'd not see they trying to stop him on humanitarian reason

A Look Back at How Fear and False Beliefs Bolstered U.S. Public Support for War in Iraq

Twenty years ago this month, the U.S. launched a major invasion of Iraq. President George W. Bush and his administration at first drew broad public support for the use of military force. Yet the campaign soon left Americans deeply divided, and by 2019, 62% said the Iraq War was not worth fighting.

www.pewresearch.org

also from his own comments whilst in power and since leaving he be quite happy to start war domestically between republican christian voters and the rest of the country

 

[phildwyer]

haha the same folk who support bush throughout Iraq

Well they supported him at the beginning of the Iraq war, having been fooled into believing that Saddam was somehow connected to 9/11. But after a few years of seeing their children come back in boxes, wounded or traumatized for no apparent benefit, they began to turn against even that war. And they have absolutely no appetite for this one. Why would they?

 

[Ax^]

Well they supported him at the beginning of the Iraq war, having been fooled into believing that Saddam was somehow connected to 9/11. But after a few years of seeing their children come back in boxes, wounded or traumatized for no apparent benefit, they began to turn against even that war. And they have absolutely no appetite for this one. Why would they?

the people who are the biggest supporters of trump atm want a race war or to throw it back to the 1950's, look at how he packed the supreme court during his last tenure and the after effects which we are going to be seeing for at least the next ten years

and if you think that fucker going to leave office after his second term you are very sadly mistaken

 

[phildwyer]

the people who are the biggest supporters of trump atm want a race war or to throw it back to the 1950's, look at how he packed the supreme court during his last tenure and the after effects which we are going to be seeing for at least the next ten years

and if you think that fucker going to leave office after his second term you are very sadly mistaken

Nobody wants a race war, almost nobody wants to go back to the '50s. The threat posed by US right-wing extremism is vastly exaggerated.

 

[Ax^]

oh trying be a pregnant woman in Texas who wants an abortion phil..

anyone who even take you to a clinic can get fined and charged by the state.

clinic have shut down because they liable
and the idea of travel bans has been mooted

The unconstitutional plan to stop women from traveling out of state for an abortion, explained

The age of travel bans is now upon us.

www.vox.com

some people do want to go back to the 1950s

but you to busy calling biden old to notice

 

[tim]

did jazz not catch a ban for posting end bullshit links on the site

Wasn't Drjazz's banning more specifically to do with the fear that someone might do themselves a mischief as a result of following his medical advice?

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Wasn't Drjazz's banning more specifically to do with the fear that someone might do themselves a mischief as a result of following his medical advice?

Iirc it was vaccines that did for him in the end but I think a decade or so of accumulated bullshit was probably the real cause.

 

[Ax^]

hmm think Marty1 went the same way when he started suggest sheep dewormer or bleach as a cure for COVID
if I remember correctly did jazz not also go down the route of spree shooting is because of anti depressants rather than lack gun controll

 

[RD2003]

Looks like the war sceptics were right after all, as Zelensky tries to put a brave face on stalemate and what he knows will probably follow. He doesn't seem entirely coherent either. And the bit in italics is interesting as well, seeing as the Ukrainians and their puppet masters, as well as the experts on here, told us the Russian army was demonstrably shite back when enthusiasm and delusion was at its height.

Ukraine in 'new phase of war', Zelenskiy says​

Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskiy addressed the challenges of winter, the counteroffensive and war in the Middle East in a new interview.

“We have a new phase of war, and that is a fact,” Zelenskiy told The Associated Press in an interview in Kharkiv yesterday, published this morning. “Winter as a whole is a new phase of war,” he said.

Asked about the counteroffensive, he said:

“Look, we are not backing down, I am satisfied. We are fighting with the second (best) army in the world, I am satisfied,” he said, referring to the Russian military.

But he also said: “We are losing people, I’m not satisfied. We didn’t get all the weapons we wanted, I can’t be satisfied, but I also can’t complain too much.”

Speaking about last summer’s counteroffensive, the Ukrainian leader said:

We wanted faster results. From that perspective, unfortunately, we did not achieve the desired results. And this is a fact.

He also underscored the importance of boosting domestic arms production, and Kyiv’s push for cheap loans and licenses to manufacture weapons.

And he addressed the impact of the war between Israel and Hamas.

“We already can see the consequences of the international community shifting (attention) because of the tragedy in the Middle East,” he said. “Only the blind don’t recognise this.”

“We must not allow people to forget about the war here,” he said.

 

[8ball]

Looks like the war sceptics were right after all, as Zelensky tries to put a brave face on stalemate and what he knows will probably follow. He doesn't seem entirely coherent either. And the bit in italics is interesting as well, seeing as the Ukrainians and their puppet masters, as well as the experts on here, told us the Russian army was demonstrably shite back when enthusiasm and delusion was at its height.

Ukraine in 'new phase of war', Zelenskiy says​

Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskiy addressed the challenges of winter, the counteroffensive and war in the Middle East in a new interview.

“We have a new phase of war, and that is a fact,” Zelenskiy told The Associated Press in an interview in Kharkiv yesterday, published this morning. “Winter as a whole is a new phase of war,” he said.

Asked about the counteroffensive, he said:

“Look, we are not backing down, I am satisfied. We are fighting with the second (best) army in the world, I am satisfied,” he said, referring to the Russian military.

But he also said: “We are losing people, I’m not satisfied. We didn’t get all the weapons we wanted, I can’t be satisfied, but I also can’t complain too much.”

Speaking about last summer’s counteroffensive, the Ukrainian leader said:


He also underscored the importance of boosting domestic arms production, and Kyiv’s push for cheap loans and licenses to manufacture weapons.

And he addressed the impact of the war between Israel and Hamas.

“We already can see the consequences of the international community shifting (attention) because of the tragedy in the Middle East,” he said. “Only the blind don’t recognise this.”

“We must not allow people to forget about the war here,” he said.

Just this bit:

"“We have a new phase of war, and that is a fact...winter as a whole is a new phase of war.”

The man is a military genius. I look forward to what insights he may bring us in March.

 

[phildwyer]

Just this bit:

"“We have a new phase of war, and that is a fact...winter as a whole is a new phase of war.”

The man is a military genius. I look forward to what insights he may bring us in March.

Zelensky will be fine. He wasn't much of a politician or warrior, but at least he has a reliable skill-set to fall back on:

 

[RD2003]

The retreat of western liberal complacency continues, as, predictably, scepticism takes hold....

Ukraine Can't Win the War

There is no realistic chance of total Ukrainian victory next year, or the year after that.

time.com