Another Lib Dem anti-Semite

[Falcon]

Ok, so you don't agree with that proposition? Good. Now why do you agree with a very similar proposition wrt Jews across the world and their silence over the actions of Israel?

What proposition, exactly? If someone does something of which others disapprove, and those others mistake you for one of them, then it would be wise to dissociate yourself, particularly if you also disapprove, and your silence is likely to be interpreted as evidence of association. You don't have to, but if doing so will improve your situation, why would you not if it costs you nothing? Conversely, given the obvious benefit of dissociation from an activity with which you also disapprove and which costs you nothing, why would you remain silent?

I think we are talking about rational behaviour more than anything else.

 

[Falcon]

Jews and their prickliness

Always whining about something, when they've got all these protections under the law. Something must be done. How long must we tolerate this state of affairs?

You do realise that the behaviour you have just displayed is precisely the behaviour you are deploring in anti-Semites?
I have no idea whether the people I am debating with are Jews, and care even less - the statements that you are prickly, and Jews are prickly, are different and the latter is one you invented. And your slippery slope fallacy is deplorable. I am just trying to understand your viewpoint, and have even "Liked" one of your posts - you are doing it a profound disservice.

 

[J Ed]

You do realise that the behaviour you have just displayed is precisely the behaviour you are deploring in anti-Semites?

It really isn't.

 

[Falcon]

It really isn't.

Substituting "People are prickly" with "Jews are prickly", and "Israelis do X" with "Jews do X", aren't the same behaviour? Do explain.

 

[frogwoman]

What proposition, exactly? If someone does something of which others disapprove, and those others mistake you for one of them, then it would be wise to dissociate yourself, particularly if you also disapprove, and your silence is likely to be interpreted as evidence of association. You don't have to, but if doing so will improve your situation, why would you not if it costs you nothing? Conversely, given the obvious benefit of dissociation from an activity with which you also disapprove and which costs you nothing, why would you remain silent?

I think we are talking about rational behaviour more than anything else.

I have given some reasons as to why a lot of jews (including myself) don't get involved with campaigns about Israel, i find the politics of many such groups distasteful in many ways even if they're not actually anti-semitic, and i think that when "Jewish" groups are involved it often tends to turn discomfort at one's religious/ethnic identity into a political principle - the whole idea of Jewish activists "pledging to hold themselves accountable" for the actions Israel for example. I don't think that a lot of Jewish people would find it comfortable marching against some action of Israel alongside people who openly express the views which you have expressed on this thread. That doesn't mean they are all zionists. I myself despise zionism. The actions of israel in terms of its policy towards the palestinians don't benefit Jews any more than the actions of the british state in ireland and elsewhere benefit Christians.

 

[DotCommunist]

You do realise that the behaviour you have just displayed is precisely the behaviour you are deploring in anti-Semites?
I have no idea whether the people I am debating with are Jews, and care even less - the statements that you are prickly, and Jews are prickly, are different and the latter is one you invented. And your slippery slope fallacy is deplorable. I am just trying to understand your viewpoint, and have even "Liked" one of your posts - you are doing it a profound disservice.

move over Oscar Schindler

 

[TheHermit]

You who were so quick to condemn the apartheid of white South Africa and the ethic cleansing of Bosnia by the Serbs stand back and indeed support the cunts in Israel who are perpetrating genocide, ethnic cleansing and other crimes against humanity and have been since 1948. The terrorists who blew up the King David Hotel have been consistently supported by the West since the carve-up of Palestine by the unholy trinity in an act of appeasement following guilt over letting the holocaust happen. Today's terrorists, tomorrow,s freedom fighters. Think on. If I've missed the point of this thread then apologies but this stuff makes me ANGRY.

 

[frogwoman]

What proposition, exactly? If someone does something of which others disapprove, and those others mistake you for one of them, then it would be wise to dissociate yourself, particularly if you also disapprove, and your silence is likely to be interpreted as evidence of association. You don't have to, but if doing so will improve your situation, why would you not if it costs you nothing? Conversely, given the obvious benefit of dissociation from an activity with which you also disapprove and which costs you nothing, why would you remain silent?

I think we are talking about rational behaviour more than anything else.

would you demand that black people disassociate themselves from "jamaican gangs"?

 

[frogwoman]

You who were so quick to condemn the apartheid of white South Africa and the ethic cleansing of Bosnia by the Sernow stand back and indeed support the cunts in Israel who are perpetrating genocide, ethnic cleansing and other crimes against humanity and have been since 1948. The terrorists who blew up the King David Hotel have been consistently supported by the West since the carve-up of Palestine by the unholy trinity in an act of appeasement following guilt over letting the holocaust happen.

You? Who are you talking about?

 

[DotCommunist]

do me a fucking favour

 

[butchersapron]

You who were so quick to condemn the apartheid of white South Africa and the ethic cleansing of Bosnia by the Serbs stand back and indeed support the cunts in Israel who are perpetrating genocide, ethnic cleansing and other crimes against humanity and have been since 1948. The terrorists who blew up the King David Hotel have been consistently supported by the West since the carve-up of Palestine by the unholy trinity in an act of appeasement following guilt over letting the holocaust happen.

Who are you talking to on this thread?

 

[DotCommunist]

You who were so quick to condemn the apartheid of white South Africa and the ethic cleansing of Bosnia by the Serbs stand back and indeed support the cunts in Israel who are perpetrating genocide, ethnic cleansing and other crimes against humanity and have been since 1948. The terrorists who blew up the King David Hotel have been consistently supported by the West since the carve-up of Palestine by the unholy trinity in an act of appeasement following guilt over letting the holocaust happen. Today's terrorists, tomorrow,s freedom fighters. Think on. If I've missed the point of this thread then apologies but this stuff makes me ANGRY.

you've missed the fucking bus imo

 

[Falcon]

I don't think that a lot of Jewish people would find it comfortable marching against some action of Israel alongside people who openly express the views which you have expressed on this thread.

OK. So, anti-Semitism (understandably) makes you uncomfortable, but you will only engage in activities which are comfortable. Then should you be surprised or hurt if those people have no basis for discovering that they are wrong, and therefore continue with their uninformed views?

 

[frogwoman]

OK. So, anti-Semitism (understandably) makes you uncomfortable, but you will only engage in activities which are comfortable. Then you mustn't be surprised or hurt if those people have no basis for discovering that they are wrong, and therefore continue with their views.

i didn't say that at all. having been involved in one such group i think any activity of that kind that does not seek to try and address the concerns of working class israelis and jews and does not tackle anti-semitism and has no political content rather than becoming some sort of circle jerk to the effect of "israel bad/everyone else good" so as not to alienate liberal democrats and tories who are supportive is a complete dead end

 

[frogwoman]

OK. So, anti-Semitism (understandably) makes you uncomfortable, but you will only engage in activities which are comfortable. Then should you be surprised or hurt if those people have no basis for discovering that they are wrong, and therefore continue with their uninformed views?

If they have any sense they will work it out for themselves anyway without the need of some sort of vanguard to educate them out of their false consciousness.

 

[Falcon]

would you demand that black people disassociate themselves from "jamaican gangs"?

Are there any jamaican gangs engaging in the destruction of a state in pursuit of a notion of manifest destiny which claims to derive its authority to do so from a black religion? Then - I'd be in no position to demand it, but I would suggest it wise.

 

[Falcon]

If they have any sense they will work it out for themselves anyway without the need of some sort of vanguard to educate them out of their false consciousness.

But they don't. So passivity (and, dare I say, occasional alienation) is unlikely to be a viable strategy here. But I take your other points.

 

[frogwoman]

But they don't. So passivity (and, dare I say, occasional alienation) is unlikely to be a viable strategy here. But I take your other points.

If they don't what? Stop blaming Jews for the crimes of Israel? If they don't want to do that despite the evidence that is around them then fuck them. We don't need them. If they have any sense, they'll work it out. If not they won't. If somebody is ideologically convinced of anti-semitism then a few more jews on anti israel demos isn't going to change that.

 

[DotCommunist]

falcon is of course throwing up sand and obfuscating after being caught out making some pretty dodgy statements. No ones fooled falcon, you've mugged yourself- desperate clarifications, ninja edits and frantic rearguard action aside

 

[Falcon]

If they don't what? Stop blaming Jews for the crimes of Israel? If they don't want to do that despite the evidence that is around them then fuck them. We don't need them. If they have any sense, they'll work it out.

Have any sense. I presume you were referring to us goys, and I was agreeing that we have no sense in this regard (a sweeping statement, intended more for its calming rather than descriptive property). Which you turn into a protest about blaming Jews. In response to my regret that you occasionally alienate potential allies.

You couldn't make this thread up. It's a caricature.

 

[TheHermit]

do me a fucking favour

Any thing you would like in particular? Ego massaged maybe?

 

[frogwoman]

Have any sense. I presume you were referring to us goys, and I was agreeing that we have no sense. Which you turn into a protest about blaming Jews. In response to my regret that you occasionally alienate potential allies.

You couldn't make this thread up. It's a caricature.

Are you serious?

If somebody thinks that all Jews benefit from Israel's atrocities, thatJews get special treatment under law and that no Jews oppose what Israel is doing and that there are a group of powerful Jews controlling US foreign policy then a bit of evidence to the contrary probably isn't going to convince them to the contrary. If they have any sense they will examine these ideas critically by themselves, if they don't they will carry on thinking the same shit.

 

[Falcon]

falcon is of course throwing up sand and obfuscating after being caught out making some pretty dodgy statements. No ones fooled falcon, you've mugged yourself- desperate clarifications, ninja edits and frantic rearguard action aside

Of course. Or else you would have made an arse of your self, hoping no-one notices that you fail to demonstrate your points when you are called.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Have any sense. I presume you were referring to us goys, and I was agreeing that we have no sense in this regard (a sweeping statement, intended more for its calming rather than descriptive property). Which you turn into a protest about blaming Jews. In response to my regret that you occasionally alienate potential allies.

You couldn't make this thread up. It's a caricature.

Ahh. You're doing it again. Frogwoman is Jewish, but don't put her in this category 'the Jews' and talk about 'you' like that.

 

[DotCommunist]

Any thing you would like in particular? Ego massaged maybe?

I stroke that myself often enough thanks- you not throwing out accusations against an unidentified 'you' who support israels atrocities would be nice though

 

[Falcon]

Are you serious?

I was agreeing with you. You seem furious.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Tactless remark. But people say much worse things. Doesn't seem worth making a big deal out of.

What's his purported job?
As far as I'm aware it's to represent his constituents in Parliament. As far as I'm concerned, that includes not making his constituents look like arseholes because the person they elected can't be bothered to think through what he's saying.

 

[Falcon]

Ahh. You're doing it again. Frogwoman is Jewish, but don't put her in this category 'the Jews' and talk about 'you' like that.

Ahh. The glimmer of a straw man appears ...

 

[DotCommunist]

Of course. Or else you would have made an arse of your self, hoping no-one notices that you fail to demonstrate your points when you are called.

my points lol- I've got nothing to substantiate or justify ('of course you havn't' etc) because this isn't debate club this is me laughing at you for a quite transparent swerve. Well attempted one anyway.

If you really think you've fooled anyone with this 'spirit of honest inquiry' lark then you are delusional.

 

[frogwoman]

I have no idea what you're on about.