Another Lib Dem anti-Semite

[frogwoman]

I didn't invite you to state your position. I invited you to state your right *not* to state your position. Do keep up.

there are millions of people who exercise that right by not talking about the holocaust every day

 

[Falcon]

Because it's creepy and weird.

So it *is* creepy and weird for littlebabyjesus to remain silent about his views on the holocaust, and *not* creepy and weird for a Jew to remain silent on his views on Israeli atrocity.

ViolentPanda is coming back to us shortly on Exceptionalism, thankfully.

 

[purenarcotic]

You do realise that the behaviour you have just displayed is precisely the behaviour you are deploring in anti-Semites?
I have no idea whether the people I am debating with are Jews, and care even less - the statements that you are prickly, and Jews are prickly, are different and the latter is one you invented. And your slippery slope fallacy is deplorable. I am just trying to understand your viewpoint, and have even "Liked" one of your posts - you are doing it a profound disservice.

They're being sarcastic ffs.

 

[frogwoman]

So it *is* creepy and weird for littlebabyjesus to remain silent about his views on the holocaust, and *not* creepy and weird for a Jew to remain silent on his views on Israeli atrocity.

ViolentPanda is coming back to us shortly on Exceptionalism, thankfully.

Declare your interests, Jews!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I DEMAND THE RIGHT NOT TO SAY ANYTHING. LOUDLY AND PUBLICLY, JUST IN CASE YOU THOUGHT MY SILENCE ON THIS MATTER UP TO THIS POINT MEANT THAT I THOUGHT I DID NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT ON THIS ISSUE. I CAN REMAIN SILENT NO LONGER ABOUT MY RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT. WHO IS WITH ME?

 

[Falcon]

there are millions of people who exercise that right by not talking about the holocaust every day

And not a single one of them who could state a right to remain silent about it, and not be suspected of supporting it.

I made the point in response to ViolentPanda's claim that stating there is no right to remain silent is fatuous, which I believe to be fatuous by virtue of the fact it can be proved by the simple mall test I put to LBJ.

 

[butchersapron]

Best meltdown thread in a while - and only enhanced by coming out of the blue. I mean we all knew he was on the right from his anti-strike posts before but this...

 

[Falcon]

Stumbling around a shopping mall shouting crap about the Holocaust is not in any way 'not stating a position'.

If I've overestimated your capacity to engage in a thought experiment in order to make an advance in thinking, then I apologise.

 

[Random]

So it *is* creepy and weird for littlebabyjesus to remain silent about his views on the holocaust, and *not* creepy and weird for a Jew to remain silent on his views on Israeli atrocity.

ViolentPanda is coming back to us shortly on Exceptionalism, thankfully.

No, you're just creepy and weird by banging on about "the Jews" as some major issue that you care about. You are the real believer in "Jewish exceptionalism".

 

[purenarcotic]

The only person here running around trying to claim Jews are all one homogenous group is you, Falcon. Maybe you should look at yourself before attempting to criticise others.

 

[Falcon]

Best meltdown thread in a while - and only enhanced by coming out of the blue. I mean we all knew he was on the right from his anti-strike posts before but this...

Can you help me understand how arguing that Jews might engage more in helping gentiles with their ignorance is evidence that I am "on the right".

Is *everything* capable of being plucked out of nowhere and presented as evidence of being on the right, to people of whatever side you are on?

[edit: changed "should" to "might".]

 

[purenarcotic]

Why should they? Shouldn't non Jews take more responsibility to be less ignorant?

Why must all Jews do this? Who the fuck are you to tell all Jews what to do? And who are 'the Jews' anyway? We're not all one group you know.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Blaming "the Jews" for Zionist atrocities is no different to blaming "the Muslims" for the crimes of Islamists. Apart from the fact that such remarks are offensively stereotypical and generalising, they actually play into the narrative of Zionists and Islamists because it is they who claim to speak for all Jews or all Muslims. It is they who clothe their politics in the language of religion. It is important not to play into their narrative.

Falcon, read this, and particularly think about the bit I've bolded.

 

[DotCommunist]

Best meltdown thread in a while - and only enhanced by coming out of the blue. I mean we all knew he was on the right from his anti-strike posts before but this...

and the 'spirit of honest inquiry' stuff about the welfare state

 

[Random]

Can you help me understand how arguing that Jews might engage more in helping gentiles with their ignorance is evidence that I am "on the right".

Falcon is clearly not on the right. Or the left. But some kind of third position.

Anyway can you stop with all of this "gentiles" crap, as well? Dividing up the world into Jews and non-Jews, trying to implicate everyone else in your world view.

 

[purenarcotic]

Falcon is clearly not on the right. Or the left. But some kind of third position.

Anyway can you stop with all of this "gentiles" crap, as well? Dividing up the world into Jews and non-Jews, trying to implicate everyone else in your world view.

Would that be the 'ridiculous idiot' position?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Anyway can you stop with all of this "gentiles" crap, as well? Dividing up the world into Jews and non-Jews, trying to implicate everyone else in your world view.

yes, this. I don't recognise myself as a 'gentile'. Someone else might call me that, but it's not a term that has any real meaning to me. It's also not an unloaded term as it arises from a historical opposition between Jew and Christian, and I am neither of these.

 

[Falcon]

Falcon, read this, and particularly think about the bit I've bolded.

Absolutely.But there are two different things going on here. Blaming Jews and Muslims about Zionist and Islamist atrocities and crimes, and Jews and Muslims remaining silent about such atrocities and crimes. *Both* play into the narrative of Zionists and Islamists.

 

[Random]

Absolutely.But there are two different things going on here. Blaming Jews and Muslims about Zionist and Islamist atrocities and crimes, and Jews and Muslims remaining silent about such atrocities and crimes. *Both* play into the narrative of Zionists and Islamists.

Most people want to get on with their lives, without being bothered by nationalist nutters. I don't blame them for refusing to engage with the whole game.

 

[nino_savatte]

the jews.

baronness younge (??) was another one iirc

That was Jenny Tonge.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Other than the establishment of the state of Israel as a home to Jews and the political fulfilment of Jewish religious prophesy, you mean?

In terms of religion, Judaism per se does not validate the actions of the state of Israel in constructing a state of Israel, because the realisation of Israel can, to the religious, only come about through the coming and intervention of a Messiah, not through the proclamations of politicians. Therefore "political fulfillment of Jewish religious philosophy" is meaningless to religious Jews except insofar as it can be used as a justification to achieve ends of their own (which invariably are not anything to do with Jewish religious prophesy).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nope. Please don't waste everyone's time on one of your little strawman fantasies. I've observed that Israelis and some Jews routinely do. That is the extent of my statement.

I've made a simple point: the assertion that Israel does not represent general Jewish sentiment can be easily disproven by presenting evidence of material Jewish sentiment condemming Israeli atrocity.

I am neither condoning conflation, nor denying that such evidence exists. I'm just curious what it looks like, since I've never seen it. I would be delighted if it did.

You haven't made a point, you've presented an assertion.

 

[savoloysam]

Of course the americans have nothing to do with this at all, do they?

 

[ViolentPanda]

For those not familiar with butchersapron's thought processes, this is the activity he substitutes for debate when he has nothing interesting to say. It is to debate what masturbation is to sex.

For those not familiar with ad hominem argument, the above is a fine example.

 

[Falcon]

yes, this. I don't recognise myself as a 'gentile'. Someone else might call me that, but it's not a term that has any real meaning to me. It's also not an unloaded term as it arises from a historical opposition between Jew and Christian, and I am neither of these.

With all due respect, that is the accurate term, in its sense of meaning "not Jewish". You are not Jewish, therefore you are gentile. It has nothing to do with opposition.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Have you tried google? 12.4 million hits for "jews against zionism". I cba to paste a load of links though. There are fucking loads of jews and jewish groups against both zionism in principle and against the actions of the current israeli state. Come to any palestine protest and you will find us there.

I'm just going to post up a single link, a group called "Peace Now"
http://peacenow.org.il/eng/

not against zionism, but against the way that the Israeli state treats Palestine/Palestinians. They are Israeli Jews btw in case you don't care to check through to the link. Is this enough material evidence for you to answer this: "the assertion that Israel does not represent general Jewish sentiment can be easily disproven by presenting evidence of material Jewish sentiment condemming Israeli atrocity."?

Honestly, I find it hard to believe that you are (a) either completely unaware of the substantial jewish criticisms of Israel or (b) couldn't be bothered with a simple google search, so I'm wondering what your agenda is here?

You are? Perusal of his posting history (if you can stomach it: Some of it is stultifyingly banal) gives a fair indication.

 

[purenarcotic]

But you don't need to use the term, just say 'non Jewish'. I don't know a lot of Jews who call non Jews gentiles. The very religious perhaps. You're quite likely to hear goyim in Israel, but that's a bit of a slang term.

You're using loaded words for no good reason. And you haven't answered any of my questions.

 

[Falcon]

For those not familiar with ad hominem argument, the above is a fine example.

Not really. An ad hominem fallacy is an attempt to refute an argument by questioning the arguer, rather than the argument. You'll note that butchers hadn't even made an argument, so I can't really be accused of trying to refute it. Think of it more as meta-argument.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Lee Jasper is praising Ward for refusing to apologise

Good old Japser, ever-alert to the possibility of self-publicising!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

With all due respect, that is the accurate term, in its sense of meaning "not Jewish". You are not Jewish, therefore you are gentile. It has nothing to do with opposition.

It has a history and a context. Outside of that context, it loses value.