Another Lib Dem anti-Semite

[ViolentPanda]

Not really. An ad hominem fallacy is an attempt to refute an argument by questioning the arguer, rather than the argument. You'll note that butchers hadn't even made an argument, so I can't really be accused of trying to refute it. Think of it more as meta-argument.

Interesting how you attempt to manouvre discourse to present yourself as a disinterested analyst, but you're not making a meta-argument, you're attempting to avoid admitting your own commiting of the "offence" you accuse others of.

 

[Random]

Although Falcon himself is clearly some kind of hard baked wingnut, I think it's still worth debunking his arguments in public, as this kind of belief in a Jewish-wide conspiracy is unfortunately still too common.

 

[Falcon]

In which case, by your own admission, you're ill-informed.

The people who are anti-Semitic most certainly are. To the extent that your fortunes improve or decline in proportion to their level of knowledge, and are invariant to yours, your statements of how well informed the folks are down your synagogue are interesting, but irrelevant to the problem of anti-Semitism explored in this thread.

In "our society" we have a notional right, as individuals or communities, to our own opinions and to silence, that includes the actions of our state, or any of the cultures that inhabit our state.

... a right which we willingly forgo, irritatingly for your argument, in the matter of the Holocaust.

No, in fact I'd say that's exactly what you are doing. You're saying that Jews should, in exception to any other culture, disavow any alliegiance to or support of the state of Israel and or its' actions based SOLELY on the fact of being a Jew who does not live in Israel.

That is exactly what I am saying. You should forgo your right to silence in the matter of the atrocities carried out by the other members of your community whose traditional religion is also Judaism, who also trace their origins to the ancient Hebrew people of Israel. Also, by observing that we already willingly do that in the matter of the Holocaust even though we did not live in Germany (or even that time), to argue otherwise is to assert Exceptionalism.

 

[Random]

Also, by observing that we already willingly do that in the matter of the Holocaust even though we did not live in Germany (or even that time), to argue otherwise is to assert Exceptionalism.

do all Aryans have the responsibility to constantly explain that they do not support the Nazi genocides?

 

[Falcon]

He shat all over the memorial post about people who've died post ATOS too, in the supposed spirit of honest inquiry, and then had a hissy fit when he was asked to leave the thread.

*Nice* misdirection. For "shat all over", read "enquired whether understanding the reason why they died might help us to help others". Now *that's* a classy ad-hominem.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So Jews - in the sense of members of the cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins to the ancient Hebrew people of Israel - are, in general, indifferent to the establishment and defence of a Jewish homeland in Israel?

Do you have a general understanding of the foundation of the state of Israel, of the demographics of that state with reference to what it comprised in terms of world Jewry? The formation of a state of Israel was a minority interest through most of the history of Zionism, for the religious reasons previously given. Even after the holocaust, formation of a state of Israel was the project of a minority of European and American Jews, aided by political "friends" in those countries.

If they are indifferent, then what is the basis and legitimacy of the project to establish the state of Israel at the expense of the state of Palestine?

There is little basis and legitimacy to the project. That much is obvious to anyone who doesn't have an interest to declare. It's the propogation of "might is right" at the expense of others.

If they are not indifferent, what is the status of your assertion that there is not a political agenda that arises by virtue of a religious affiliation, even if that religion it self does not express a political agenda?

The status of my assertion is that it is accurate, and the fairly well-established activism of a significant minority of Jews (secular and religious) in anti-Zionist projects reinforces that.

 

[ViolentPanda]

*Nice* misdirection. For "shat all over", read "enquired whether understanding the reason why they died might help us to help others". Now *that's* a classy ad-hominem.

It's not misdirection, it's a representation of your actions on another thread that may be informative to others on the thread of how you behave.

 

[JimW]

I gleefully pretend my grandad served in the expeditionary force of the colonial powers that burned the Summer Palace to top off China's century of foreign humiliations, as it would seem churlish to pretend I'm not culpable by association.

 

[DotCommunist]

I gleefully pretend my grandad served in the expeditionary force of the colonial powers that burned the Summer Palace to top off China's century of foreign humiliations, as it would seem churlish to pretend I'm not culpable by association.

my grandad burned down Cork singlehandedly

 

[Falcon]

Interesting how you attempt to manouvre discourse to present yourself as a disinterested analyst, but you're not making a meta-argument, you're attempting to avoid admitting your own commiting of the "offence" you accuse others of.

He didn't make an argument. I simply could not have committed an ad-hominem fallacy, for which there needs to be an argument.

Now, if butchers ever does present an actual argument, and I deploy a snarkiness as an element of my rebuttal, feel free to call it as ad-hominem. But in this case, you are simply wrong.

 

[Falcon]

There is little basis and legitimacy to the project. That much is obvious to anyone who doesn't have an interest to declare. It's the propogation of "might is right" at the expense of others.

Excellent. Then you will have no hesitation in condemning the atrocities arising from it, as I have no hesitation in condemning the Holocaust. Or do I presume too much, and you would rather assert your right to silence on the matter?

 

[Falcon]

It's not misdirection, it's a representation of your actions on another thread that may be informative to others on the thread of how you behave.

And I would encourage those others to actually read that thread to compare what you claim as "shitting on the thread" with what I actually said, and the discussion I tried to hold. To the extent that it was with people who didn't seem in the least bit interested in the causes and therefore of meaningful response, but rather a passive recitation of old grievances, it has much in common with this.

 

[Falcon]

do all Aryans have the responsibility to constantly explain that they do not support the Nazi genocides?

They have the responsibility not to claim the right to silence on the matter. Do you disagree?

 

[DotCommunist]

a responsibility to not claim a right. Like blood and honour.

 

[ymu]

Have you tried google? 12.4 million hits for "jews against zionism". I cba to paste a load of links though. There are fucking loads of jews and jewish groups against both zionism in principle and against the actions of the current israeli state. Come to any palestine protest and you will find us there.

I'm just going to post up a single link, a group called "Peace Now"
http://peacenow.org.il/eng/

not against zionism, but against the way that the Israeli state treats Palestine/Palestinians. They are Israeli Jews btw in case you don't care to check through to the link. Is this enough material evidence for you to answer this: "the assertion that Israel does not represent general Jewish sentiment can be easily disproven by presenting evidence of material Jewish sentiment condemming Israeli atrocity."?

Honestly, I find it hard to believe that you are (a) either completely unaware of the substantial jewish criticisms of Israel or (b) couldn't be bothered with a simple google search, so I'm wondering what your agenda is here?

Peace Now are a bit shit, unfortunately. "Stop killing us and we'll stop killing you and then we'll just keep your land and water and everyone will be happy". Inside Israel, groups like Anarchists Against the Wall and Black Laundry are better (gay activists against the occupation; the hebrew name translates colloquially as black sheep or dirty laundry). Gush-shalom are great, as are the Committe Against House Demolitions. Women for Women Prisoners visit Palestinian prisoners and their families to provide the only contact they get (I think there are similar groups doing the same for male prisoners). Checkpoint Watch is a group of mainly elderly citizens who observe the soldiers' behaviour at checkpoints and mitigate it simply by being there. ISM is international, but was co-founded by Palestinians, an American-Palestinian, an Israeli Jew and an American Jew.About a third of the volunteers are Jewish, and they work with a lot of Israeli-Jewish organisations also.

I'm way out of date, so there will be others now too.

There is shedloads of anti-Zionist civil society going on in Israel. It is made very hard by the propaganda of the government and the lack of insight many Israelis have into the reality on the other side of the Green Line. When it could no longer be ignored, after the start of the second intifada, the circulation of Ha'Aretz (the Israeli Guardian) fell because the truth is unpalatable. This transcript gives a good idea of views from both sides of the Green Line at that time (one Palestinian speaker, one Israeli). These articles both touch on attitudes towards Jews within Palestine, the fears of Jews in Palestine, and the contrast with the propaganda messages pumped out by Israel: The boy who kissed the soldier and I was a human shield.

Given the special treatment afforded Jews in Law, that is an especially true statement. I'm not holding anyone to any particular standard. But I think the statement that someone has no obligation to oppose the actions of a state others associate them with, but deserves protection from that association, is problematic. It is made more problematic when that person benefits (voluntarily or not) from the actions of that state.

Do you make the same sorts of statements about the Brits and their special obligation to actively oppose the legacy of and ongoing atrocities resulting from colonialism? Berate them for not being in Burma or Malaysia or India, righting the wrongs they've benefited from. Of course you don't, and if you do, what aren't you doing something about it?

It is Israel that says to be a 'real Jew' you must remain uncritical of the Jewish state. A ridiculous statement, and deeply racist. Jews are the only people in the world who are not allowed to form independent political opinions? And you fell for it, you fucking fool.

 

[Falcon]

Do you make the same sorts of statements about the Brits and their special obligation to actively oppose the legacy of and ongoing atrocities resulting from colonialism? Berate them for not being in Burma or Malaysia or India, righting the wrongs they've benefited from. Of course you don't, and if you do, what aren't you doing something about it?

Firstly, thanks for a sane and informative post. I regret you feel unable to resist the "fucking fool" nonsense that seems to attach itself like dogshit on a shoe to everyone's posts in this place.

As it happens, my whole political outlook is formed around the necessity of reversing the legacy of colonialism or, specifically, the anglo-saxon neoliberal capitalist geopolitical structure that arose from it. So I make plenty of statements about the Brits and I'm doing much as much as I can about it. (edited )

It is Israel that says to be a 'real Jew' you must remain uncritical of the Jewish state. A ridiculous statement, and deeply racist. Jews are the only people in the world who are not allowed to form independent political opinions? And you fell for it, you fucking fool.

Fell for what? The problem is not that they form independent political opinions. The problem is that, by remaining silent having formed them, they fail to dissociate themselves from the other opinion, deepening their disadvantage. Fucking fools, indeed (your words, not mine).

 

[ymu]

"They"?

Have anti-Zionist Jews remained silent, or been silenced? Who determines what gets into the mainstream media? For many Jews, especially young 'uns from secular backgrounds, Israel has been a reason to reject their Jewish identity. Jews for Justice for Palestinians has a lot of members from this sort of background, founded by people who though "hang on, this is my identity and Israel cannot take it away from me". Hence, some of the problems with them that frogwoman pointed out.

The problem is not that you think 'the Jews' should be doing more, the problem is that you assume "they" are not.

 

[Falcon]

The problem is not that you think 'the Jews' should be doing more, the problem is that you assume they are not.

Well, to be fair, my assumption is based on what I see. If, as a fairly widely read kind of chap, I don't see lots of evidence, it doesn't seem reasonable to be surprised and hurt that the average anti-Semite doesn't see it either. And that seems rather at odds with a ViolentPanda/FrogWoman sort of approach that "my views are my own business". If anti-Semitism bothers Jews, then Jews have an obligation - and a self interest - to engage in the sorts of behaviours that tackle it - like denouncing Israeli terrorism, supporting Palestinians, and all the rest. And if the current level of effort isn't cutting in, then they need to do more. Don't they?

 

[J Ed]

Excellent. Then you will have no hesitation in condemning the atrocities arising from it, as I have no hesitation in condemning the Holocaust. Or do I presume too much, and you would rather assert your right to silence on the matter?

That's stupid, I'm British and there is a lot of stuff that British governments have done both during my lifetime and before it that I disapprove of massively but I'm not going to write a long letter of condemnation about every single crime of colonialism. This collective responsibility nonsense is bullshit and it's bullshit when it applies to Jews as well.

Besides which given that I'm British, I'd spend a lot longer writing out these letters of condemnation than any Jewish person, unless they were British too, or are Jews absolved of the crimes of gentile governments?

My ancestors were living in Ireland when most British crimes against the Irish were being waged, am I still responsible for condemning those crimes or can I miss out those ones?

Just how does this collective responsibility stuff work?

 

[Falcon]

That's stupid, I'm British and there is a lot of stuff that British governments have done both during my lifetime and before it that I disapprove of massively but I'm not going to write a long letter of condemnation about every single crime of colonialism. This collective responsibility nonsense is bullshit and it's bullshit when it applies to Jews as well.

Fantastic. But then, there is no British equivalent of anti-Semitism. So I guess you have that luxury. Doesn't help the Jews much, now, does it?

 

[ymu]

Well, to be fair, my assumption is based on what I see. If, as a fairly widely read kind of chap, I don't see lots of evidence, it doesn't seem reasonable to be surprised and hurt that the average anti-Semite doesn't see it either. And that seems rather at odds with a ViolentPanda/FrogWoman sort of approach that "my views are my own business". If anti-Semitism bothers Jews, then Jews have an obligation - and a self interest - to engage in the sorts of behaviours that tackle it - like denouncing Israeli terrorism, supporting Palestinians, and all the rest. And if the current level of effort isn't cutting in, then they need to do more. Don't they?

It's asking a lot. Israel has a pernicious influence and even amongst Zionists who concede that there is a problem, the attitude is often that you only speak ill of Israel within Israel. I worked at a university with a very strong Zionist influence and it was extremely hard for Jewish students to reclaim the Jewish Society - they were shunned, had false allegations made against them (as did any pro-Palestinian who raised their head above the parapet), experienced physical violence on occasion. The Christian right were welcome allies, anti-Zionist Jews were treated like scum. That was in a period where many university campuses had movements to force separate Zionist Societies to allow Jewish Societies to cater for all Jewish students, but with limited success IIRC.

This is how dissent is silenced. But you cannot possibly have looked very hard for Jewish anti-Zionism. If I need a source on Palestine-Israel in a contentious debate, I generally choose one written by a Jewish Israeli because there is not a single thing said about the conflict that has not been said by a Jewish Israeli. They might get mainstream platforms denied much of the time, but they are there and they are vocal and not at all hard to find.

I spent some time in prison in Israel (and was called a terrorist on national TV by a government minister). The support from Israeli Jewish groups was overwhelming. One elderly couple contacted us to offer to act as go-between with our families because we couldn't get hold of phone cards that were sufficient to make international calls. We had a Jewish and a Palestinian lawyer acting pro bono, and offers of help from loads of Jewish Israeli lawyers and civil society groups. Women for Women Prisoners visited, not for us but so they could boost morale in the Palestinian wing. The court was full of Israeli Jews, all of them supporting us. Even the Jewish prisoners, wound up by the guards and sent in our direction, had no issue with what we had done, and it didn't take long to change their minds. Thank fuck; they were scary. We were locked up 23 hours a day with only what we had been arrested in and Jewish prisoners gave us their clothes, washed our clothes for us so they could dry in the sun and tried to make us take bottles of coke and chocolate through the bars of our cell.

I'm banging on, sorry, but this is so fucking offensive. People are not their governments and all governments make it fucking difficult for dissent to be heard. You know this.

 

[J Ed]

If Ed Miliband becomes Prime Minister, are Jews responsible for everything he does and the rest of us get a pass? Or do we both cop it?

 

[cesare]

They have the responsibility not to claim the right to silence on the matter. Do you disagree?

This style of questioning rings a bell.

 

[Falcon]

This is how dissent is silenced. But you cannot possibly have looked very hard for Jewish anti-Zionism.

This is internet forum writing at its best. Well written, unexpected, fascinating, and challenging. Thank you.

I haven't looked very hard at all, partly because I wouldn't know what to look for. Jews complain that non-Jews lump them all together. Well, non-Jews might make the same complaint. Neither I nor an anti-Semite are well informed - that does not make me an anti-Semite. Nor does me being anti-Israel.

I have to say, some Jews might help themselves by not flaming everyone who doesn't find their history and condition quite as fascinating as they do, and are therefore not as informed as they might like them to be. It's quite interesting to look back over what is a simple enquiry by a genuinely curious potential sympathiser, and count off all the fascist/anti-semite/right-wing/creepy/god knows what accusations - as a subject, it does seem to attract the most peculiarly hostile sort of people, which ironically only reinforces the impressions upon which anti-Semitism are founded.

So yes, it's asking a lot. Seems to be a good reason for some not to make it harder for you.

 

[Pickman's model]

Falcon: oh dear oh dear, you fall for the auld canard that anti-semites are necessarily ill-informed. Why?

 

[ymu]

The conflict and the debate surrounding it are a headfuck, it's true.

Start with Israeli revisionist historians like Avi Shlaim, and excellent journalists like Amira Hass (Israeli Jewish journalist who based herself in Gaza for many years) and Uri Avnery. And the Israeli academics who support the academic boycott. And Nurit Peled-Elhanan.

This piece by Uri Avnery gives a fantastic insight into the Israeli psyche: A moment of truth.

 

[Pickman's model]

Perhaps a different term could be used as revisionist historians aren't often the good guys

 

[ymu]

Perhaps a different term could be used as revisionist historians aren't often the good guys

I did say "like Avi Shlaim". Most of them are OK though. Only Benny Morris drew the conclusion that, having uncovered evidence of deliberate genocide, the job should have been done properly. His actual history is good regardless of what you think of his politics.

 

[Falcon]

Falcon: oh dear oh dear, you fall for the auld canard that anti-semites are necessarily ill-informed. Why?

Oh dear. You lump informed anti-Semites, uninformed anti-Semites, and the uninformed together, in a thread that complains about lumping Jews together. Why?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Excellent. Then you will have no hesitation in condemning the atrocities arising from it, as I have no hesitation in condemning the Holocaust. Or do I presume too much, and you would rather assert your right to silence on the matter?

Are you now demanding that VP denounces the atrocities committed by the state of Israel simply because he's Jewish? Have a fucking word you weirdo.