And next, Syria?

[phildwyer]

But by all means keep screaming that it's the West's fault, 'cos nobody else gives a shit about assigning blame for how this started - only you.

If only that were true.

In reality though, I'm afraid an awful lot of people are interested in who's responsible for the unbelievable chaos and misery that has enveloped the region over the last 20 years. And they're putting the blame squarely at the door of the West, which means we're likely to continue paying the price for a very long time.

Quite apart from that, your position is entirely unethical. If countries of which I'm a citizen commit atrocities, it's my duty to do something about it--even if only speak up. You apparently see yourself as a "Leftist" (whatever that means) so it surprises me that you resist assigning the blame where it so obviously belongs.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

imperialism.

Imperialism is neither good nor bad though

 

[camouflage]

Imperialism is neither good nor bad though

i consider it a form of cannibalism; where one human society feeds upon another.

 

[phildwyer]

Imperialism is neither good nor bad though

Its victims seldom applaud it.

 

[Red Cat]

butchersapron , I really struggle with kids and work to have the time or the mental space to put the work in to understand what's going on in the world right now. I often just feel overwhelmed by it, and confused. But thanks for posting such interesting links atm, even if I don't manage to read them all, I really appreciate it.

 

[mears]

Blaming "The West" for all the problems in the Middle East is rubbish and condescending to the actual inhabitants of the area. Syria, poverty, and the radicalism that inflicts this area must be solved by the natives. If the west can help at all its by funding groups which foster a more humane and tolerant version of Islam in the Middle East. No such organizations, political parties come to me at the moment.

 

[phildwyer]

Blaming "The West" for all the problems in the Middle East is rubbish and condescending to the actual inhabitants of the area.

But blaming the West for bombing the crap out of the Middle East for the last 12 years, thus systematically reducing the entire region to chaos, is completely appropriate.

Who else are you going to blame, the Tooth Fairy?

 

[butchersapron]

butchersapron , I really struggle with kids and work to have the time or the mental space to put the work in to understand what's going on in the world right now. I often just feel overwhelmed by it, and confused. But thanks for posting such interesting links atm, even if I don't manage to read them all, I really appreciate it.

You're more than welcome - tbh it sometimes ask myself if it's worth it, if anyone is reading them or thinking about them, getting anything from them so it's really nice to hear that some people are.

 

[Coolfonz]

And this was our business because?

I can see why it was Israel's business--he was a direct threat (albeit a fairly small one) to Israel. But why does that make it our problem?

And now look at the fine mess the whole place is in. It's what Hegel calls "the cunning of reason," and what our media calls "blowback." And we haven't heard the last of it, not by a long shot.

You said the US and the UK "started it". The US and the UK started the violence in Syria? Not Assad?

 

[Coolfonz]

You're more than welcome - tbh it sometimes ask myself if it's worth it, if anyone is reading them or thinking about them, getting anything from them so it's really nice to hear that some people are.

I think the links and the reading you do/post up are also excellent and always worth a look.

 

[phildwyer]

You said the US and the UK "started it". The US and the UK started the violence in Syria? Not Assad?

The US and UK made it into full-scale war. They've been attacking the Muslim world systematically for over a decade. They've directly attacked Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan and Pakistan (as the French have attacked Mali, Niger and Chad). They've orchestrated the overthrow of democratically-elected governments in Algeria and Egypt. They're destabilizing Iran and Yemen. This is a deliberate and concerted campaign of destruction.

I remember back in 2003, I asked my Turkish father-in-law what would happen if the US/uk invaded Iraq. He looked at me like I was a simpleton and said: "the middle east will burn." Everybody in the region knew what the outcome would be, and everyone knew that this was the intended outcome. I'm constantly astounded by the Western Left's self-deception about this. Liberal imperialists are the worst kind.

 

[phildwyer]

You're more than welcome - tbh it sometimes ask myself if it's worth it, if anyone is reading them or thinking about them, getting anything from them so it's really nice to hear that some people are.

I always read them. It's instructive to trace the thought processes which have led such an intelligent man into such egregious error.

 

[J Ed]

Reports that the largest Western backed Islamist group Harakat Hazm has dissolved after a few days of being attacked by Al-Nusra

 

[Coolfonz]

The US and UK made it into full-scale war. They've been attacking the Muslim world systematically for over a decade. They've directly attacked Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan and Pakistan (as the French have attacked Mali, Niger and Chad). They've orchestrated the overthrow of democratically-elected governments in Algeria and Egypt. They're destabilizing Iran and Yemen. This is a deliberate and concerted campaign of destruction.

I remember back in 2003, I asked my Turkish father-in-law what would happen if the US/uk invaded Iraq. He looked at me like I was a simpleton and said: "the middle east will burn." Everybody in the region knew what the outcome would be, and everyone knew that this was the intended outcome. I'm constantly astounded by the Western Left's self-deception about this. Liberal imperialists are the worst kind.

 

[phildwyer]

I've no conception of the ideological blinkers you must be wearing to blind you to the situation. Unless perhaps you hope to score some opportunistic sectarian political points by adopting the stance of the most reactionary elements among the lumpenproletariat?

 

[phildwyer]

In 20 or 30 years' time, anyone who supported the West's current aggression against the Muslim world is going to be frantically covering their tracks. Warmongering is only ever successful in the short term. Unfortunately, there are enough useful idiots around to guarantee that, however short-lived it may be, it's enough to get the job done.

 

[quiquaquo]

I've no conception of the ideological blinkers you must be wearing to blind you to the situation. Unless perhaps you hope to score some opportunistic sectarian political points by adopting the stance of the most reactionary elements among the lumpenproletariat?

- lumpenproletariat

+ racist scum

 

[phildwyer]

- lumpenproletariat

+ racist scum

Most of them are one or the other, but not all of them. Butchersapron for example is neither. God only knows what he's thinking.

 

[phildwyer]

Reports that the largest Western backed Islamist group Harakat Hazm has dissolved after a few days of being attacked by Al-Nusra

That is not exactly what one would call surprising, now is it?

Which reminds me, on the other thread Butchersapron responded to the equally unsurprising news of ethnic cleansing by Kurdish militias thusly:

Can't help thinking the YPG etc would not be so politically stupid. Then i stop and have a think, hang on the KRG are not stupid - they may just have different aims than you.

Gotta love that "may."

Yes darling, they do have different aims from you. Oh yes indeed they do. Moreover they are engaged in a war, and war is invariably a filthy horrible disgusting brutal and degrading business. It is not a football match in which one chooses a side and cheers for it while booing the opposition. Wtf are you thinking these days?

 

[mears]

But blaming the West for bombing the crap out of the Middle East for the last 12 years, thus systematically reducing the entire region to chaos, is completely appropriate.

Who else are you going to blame, the Tooth Fairy?

It really doesn't matter at this point. That Talk is not going to solve the problems in the ME, even if its true.

 

[phildwyer]

It really doesn't matter at this point. That Talk is not going to solve the problems in the ME, even if its true.

That's true. I can't see anything solving them at this point. The ME is going to be a very dangerous and unpleasant place for at least a generation.

 

[flypanam]

Haven't seen this any where else but the Globe and Mail are reporting that Nusra Front may leave AQ. From the report Qatar is very supportive of such a move...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-al-qaeda-to-form-new-entity/article23278141/

 

[frogwoman]

Haven't seen this any where else but the Globe and Mail are reporting that Nusra Front may leave AQ. From the report Qatar is very supportive of such a move...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-al-qaeda-to-form-new-entity/article23278141/

Thats all right then

 

[Knotted]

When somebody talks about the Syrian revolution in terms that demand unquestioning solidarity, one thing that you know that they are not interested in is the mass support the regime has and has retained let alone political strategies aimed at winning over that section of the population. It's the same old sticking point and it's the way it has been since the beginning and it's the way it will continue to be for the foreseeable future. Strategies that alienate this section of the population have been tried and tested with gusto by our revolutionaries. Tried, tested and failed.

So our leftists and liberals in the Syrian opposition, do they put forward even timid secular, liberal, democratic ideas? No they side with the Muslim Brotherhood, and call for a "civil state" (which is the brotherhood's program). They try a bit of sectarian bile against Alawites to appeal to Sunni resentments. They explain that they do so because they "understand the dynamics of Syria". They give up on the protest movement as soon as they possibly can because those guerrillas in the FSA look sexier and frankly they don't want to be explaining their position to some dirty Alawite. They forge alliances with March 14 types in Lebanon, they call for western intervention, they dismiss any talk of Gulf State interference. And basically they have got what they wanted, a popular revolt killed stone dead and replaced with a sectarian war. They didn't bargain for ISIS which goes a bit too far and they think that declaring opposition to it will impress the Americans. But the end result is that the mass support for the regime is now solid mass support for the regime. Assad is here to stay.

(That's not to say that there aren't some fine voices calling for the overthrow of the regime and against the sectarian thugs, but there are no serious voices calling for revolution, for the last two years or more it has been a matter of going back to basics)

 

[thriller]

I remember back in 2003, I asked my Turkish father-in-law what would happen if the US/uk invaded Iraq. He looked at me like I was a simpleton and said: "the middle east will burn." Everybody in the region knew what the outcome would be, and everyone knew that .

your papa in law got it part right. I for one was delighted the invasion went a head. Unlike your papa in law who know doubt had his sunni interest at heart, the invasion took the shackles of Iran and freed the shia. KNow it might have gone belly up after that with the shia turning against the invaders, but the crucial factor was the strengthening of Iran. For that, the invasion was worth it.

 

[phildwyer]

your papa in law got it part right. I for one was delighted the invasion went a head. Unlike your papa in law who know doubt had his sunni interest at heart, the invasion took the shackles of Iran and freed the shia. KNow it might have gone belly up after that with the shia turning against the invaders, but the crucial factor was the strengthening of Iran. For that, the invasion was worth it.

Are you taking the piss?

 

[Nylock]

Are you taking the piss?

It's thriller ffs, of course he's taking the piss -even when he's 'sincerely' expressing his views his utter obtuseness screams 'I AM TAKING THE PISS' from every word he writes.... The cunt.

 

[butchersapron]

Note the claimed chlorine gas bomb attack in idlib yesterday took place on the anniversary of the chemical attack on Halabja in '88. Message there for those who have ears and eyes.

Regime really stepping up bombings now. Douma really getting it. Couple thousand dead last few weeks by all accounts - possibly much higher. But still little movement beyond really localised advances that are often reversed a few days later.

 

[butchersapron]

It's shit just to do illustrative posts but here's one - school in douma this week:

 

[butchersapron]

Druze marranos

Q: What do the Druze in Idlib think about Jabhat a-Nusra and the laws they impose?

We reject their laws in principle, but follow them in public. When it comes to solving disputes amongst ourselves we don’t bring our problems to Jabhat a-Nusra, we still do that amongst ourselves.

Q: If you reject their rules, why have you decided to continue living under their protection?

There’s nothing we can do. Those Druze who have left our villages had their property seized and confiscated, now they can never return. That’s why we’ve decided to stay here.

Q: What was Jabhat a-Nusra’s justification for imposing their laws on the Druze?

They claimed they were fighting infidels, and that we had to decide our own fate and our identity, to either be with the Muslims, or the infidels.