Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh well you bomb syria and see how long it takes iran to block the straits of hormuz.
And next, Syria?
- Thread starter Idris2002
- Start date
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
There is a civil war with the use of chemical weapons and millions of refugees it is all ready completely out of hand.
The west does nothing and Assad wins and massacres the rebels and their families or the west intervenes and the rebels massacre Assad's side and their families. Or the west goes in mob handed and tries to impose peace. Iraq 2.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
or how long it takes for things to start going bang in lebanon and the Israeli border . Over a fucking youtube video
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
I have no idea international law is a strange thing and countries obey it on a whim it seems.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Between equal rights, force decides.
grim
grim
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
There is a civil war with the use of chemical weapons and millions of refugees it is all ready completely out of hand.
The west does nothing and Assad wins and massacres the rebels and their families or the west intervenes and the rebels massacre Assad's side and their families. Or the west goes in mob handed and tries to impose peace. Iraq 2.
or the west and Russia sit down together and come up with a diplomatic solution . Tell both sides theyre fucked unless they sit down at a peace conference . The solution to this does not have to be military . Not dropping bombs on people doesnt equate to doing nothing . Its only since the advent of Blair and his doctrine of unquestionably moral force that not bombing is seen as doing nothing . There used to be such a thing as diplomatic pressure .
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
there still is, but it has limits - Assad, Putin, and if we're being utterly fair, the rebels paymasters in the Gulf, are beyond the limits of the diplomatic pressure the US and the others in the West can exert.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
I disagree . Putins pretty much screaming at them to go to the UN with their evidence so they can all examine it and come up with a joint solution . Russia has expended more effort than anyone on trying to convene the Geneva talks . Its the opposition who wont go because theyre on the back foot militarily . And Assad will talk to anyone except Al Qaeda pretty much .
The west simply arent interested in any UN solution because the UN wont..indeed cant... give them what they want, regime change . Its what the west wants out of this conflict thats the problem, its goals . Those goals sadly dont permit for the war to end without a favourable solution .
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
this from a few days later is interesting
Because of an editing error, an article on Tuesday about threats by Syria to deploy chemical weapons against any foreign intervention erroneously included one type of unconventional weapon among those that Western authorities believe to be in Syria’s arsenal. It is not thought to have biological weapons. Also, an earlier version of this article incorrectly rendered part of a statement by the Syrian government. The statement said that chemical weapons would be used only in case of “external aggression,” not “exterior aggression.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/w...rebellion-syria-says.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
unlikely theyd ever be used anyway
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
its the gulf paymasters calling the shots with the yanks too sadly . Theyre the ones financing the wests campaign as well as financing AQ .
With respect to Arab countries offering to bear the cost and to assist, the answer is profoundly yes, they have. That offer is on the table," Kerry said as he appeared before a House of Representatives panel.
The offer was "quite significant," he said.
"Some of them have said that if the United States is prepared to go do the whole thing the way we've done it previously in other places, they'll carry that cost. That's how dedicated they are to this."
http://www.almanar.com.lb/english/adetails.php?eid=109118&frid=18&cid=18&fromval=1&seccatid=56
And its also looking like this little excursion has a clause they werent telling many about . The 60 days with a 30 day extension is triggered every time the west accepts an allegation that Syria has used CW . So for all intents and purposes its an open ended campaign aimed at regime change funded by those gallant champions of human rights the fucking Saudis . No wonder the west arent taking their evidence anywhere near the UN . Theyre only a bunch of fucking mercenaries .
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
and how long before that escalates in turn . Maybe these guys are calculating that with Ahmadinejad retired therell be no back up . Or maybe thats exactly what they want.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
whats your point Del..give us the lowdown from the comintern . Are Saudi Arabia funding this or not .
Are Saudi Arabia funding al-Qeada? A movement whose raison d'etre is to overthrow the House of Saud?
Yeah sure why not.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...kileaks-Saudis-chief-funders-of-al-Qaeda.html
del..seriously like...where exactly do you think jabhat al nusra...whove pledged open allegiance to Ahman Al Zahwahari and Al Qaeda get the money and equipment to fight a 2 year war with one of the biggest armies in the middle east. Car boot sales
they are the biggest and best equipped and funded force in the feild and that is courtesy of Saudi Arabia and prince Bandar . That can only come from state backing . Its an open secret theyve been funding them in Iraq for years now as a proxy against Iran as well . Your understanding of how the world actually works in practice is at best naieve, childlike and uninformed . Theres absolutely no secrecy over this stuff either .
Most probably wealthy individuals living in the gulf states, rather than the states themselves. Although in all seriousness I accept Saudi govt money probably does get get through to various boys calling themselves al-qeada. The notion that Al-Qeada is a pure Saudi Arabian puppet's bullshit though.
It's a bit more complicated than that. Yeah Saudi Arabia are up to their bollocks funding Islamists groups all over the world, maybe even people linked to Al-Qeada, but c'mon use your head. Al-Qeada is an avowedly anti-saudi organisation, they hate the house of saud and consider them their primary enemy. You know this. I daresay they'd accept money of the Saudi's if they're offering it but they're not allies. It's a really complicated relationship.
You should use these terms properly. AQ is just one of many groups banners and names that people fight under. You're turning everything into a fucking conspiracy theory.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
ah right...the good Al Qaeda and the bad Al Qaeda...with the saudis just funding the good one .
how many times have they attacked their number one primary enemy, rough estimate will do . No need to be too precise .
Im actually astounded with you . Sometimes you make really good insightful posts, the next thing you turn around and show a complete inability to take on board that sometimes political actors say one thing but in practice do another . And that this is common practice accross the world . That people buy influence and control, that common interest and necessity determine alliances, and propaganda and principle are 2 different things completely . And in the middle east of all places .
seriously man yoir coming accross as bo peep..sort that out .
how many times have they attacked their number one primary enemy, rough estimate will do . No need to be too precise .
Im actually astounded with you . Sometimes you make really good insightful posts, the next thing you turn around and show a complete inability to take on board that sometimes political actors say one thing but in practice do another . And that this is common practice accross the world . That people buy influence and control, that common interest and necessity determine alliances, and propaganda and principle are 2 different things completely . And in the middle east of all places .
seriously man yoir coming accross as bo peep..sort that out .
Delroy Booth as that Telegraph article shows CR is right. Yes in theory al-quaeda want to remove the House of Saud but they continue to be supported by Saudi Arabia and the UAE. The Muslim Brotherhood actually tried while taking sanctaury there which is why they no longer support them. Plausible deniability.
Syria’s civil war. Economist May 18th 2013
Casually Red jabhat al nusra is only one faction. Liwa al-Tawhid has ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and is backed by Turkey and until recently Qatar.
Syria’s civil war. Economist May 18th 2013
Casually Red jabhat al nusra is only one faction. Liwa al-Tawhid has ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and is backed by Turkey and until recently Qatar.
CyberRose
أرفع الشفرات
A fair few...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_militant_incidents_in_Saudi_Arabia
IIRC in Saudi Arabia I think there is some sort of 'dual' government, a Western looking half and a religious half. The Western half looks after the oil and external relations and is pretty much motivated by money. One of them just bought half of Sheff Utd so they're alright. The religious half looks after internal affairs (religious police etc). I think those on the religious half fund al-Qaida and those on the Western half are a target of al-Qaida. Obviously I could be mistaken.
CyberRose
أرفع الشفرات
I know if he could he'd be over there fighting the good fight but never knew they'd named a faction after him! His support for Assad finally paid off!
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
If he cant get his head round a bunch of medievalist wahhabists funding medievalist wahhabists ,god knows what he makes of an avowedly secular regime supported by everyone from sunni muslim scholars to christians to communists, in an alliance with Islamic Hezbollah and even more Islamic and non Arab Iran . Supported by Russia.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
hardly any . 99 percent of those attacks since the 2000s were directed against US servicemen and foreigners . Not the house of Saud .
The return to the text is thoroughly modern. They aren't using bows and arrows either.
Assad is a brutal dictator. I never though I'd agree with Putin though.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
well no, the saudis arent cheapskates
CyberRose
أرفع الشفرات
Altho I've only had a brief flick through the attacks, I'm slightly dubious about your 99% claim.
And what about all the militants killed by Saudi security forces? Does that not tell you anything?
Are you telling me Saudi Arabia isn't a target of al-Qaida? Even you think they are at least a 1% target!
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
that the deal is do that shit somewhere else, not here . And that as theres gazillions of them blowing up shit in Syria and Iraq and not Saudi its a deal most of them are happy enough with .
And no matter how complicated it is its still the case at the end of the day .
yeah to be fair the saudi's do fund Al-qeada to some extent (infact I reckon I said as much earlier in the thread) it's just when I see CR coming out with these these sweeping generalisations (Mossad gassed Ghouta, Putin respects international law, Al-qeada are the House of Saud's proxy army, their version of Hezbollah) I can't help but start laughing like Ray Liotta out of goodfellas.
Look at that list of islamist groups, it's a right mess, some of them are pro saudi, some of them are anti saudi, some of them are quite happy to pretend their pro-saudi if they think they'll get some money out of it, it's an extremely complex set of relationships.
There a big difference between a bad outcome by commission or by omission. In other words, it's worse to actively cause harm than to allow harm by not acting. Drowning someone in the lake is worse than not saving someone who is drowning.The west does nothing and Assad wins and massacres the rebels and their families or the west intervenes and the rebels massacre Assad's side and their families. Or the west goes in mob handed and tries to impose peace. Iraq 2.
In addition, it's not at all clear that intervention will result in an improvement in the situation.
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