America going soft on capital punishment

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Spymaster is right about one thing in this, which is that there's a correlation/causation problem here. The states without the dp tend to be less unequal by many measures, have better standards of social care, etc, than those with it.

That's about the only thing he's right about.

No, as usual he is wrong. Looking at the US, some DP states have higher rates of murder due to social conditions, but the overall rates of murder in states with the death penalty and those without...





And it's not just in the US...




If he wishes to pursue an argument that capital punishment deters criminals he needs to come up with something a little more solid that his hunches. A shoplifter knows at some point he will get caught. Next to no murderers ever intend getting caught; death vs. life (or the best part of it) inside is not something that anyone weighs up and decides to go for it.

 

[Spymaster]

If he wishes to pursue an argument that capital punishment deters criminals he needs to come up with something a little more solid that his hunches ...

Ah, but I'm not. My position is that your statement, the unequivocal 'CP doesn't reduce crime', is unproven, which it absolutely is. I've never really argued deterrence as a supporting factor, just that it's likely in some cases, which is far more reasonable based on evidence than your position that it absolutely isn't.

The two graphs that you've just posted are no more compelling than your first one. All the same things apply. The fundamental flaw in your thinking is that it's impossible to attribute the differences in society to the differences in legislation. I could scare up another bunch of statistics but they'd be just as unreliable. Why do you think the rate of violent crime went through the roof in the UK after the abolition of CP for example?

 

[hash tag]

Drugs is an ideal example, btw. I don't carry smelly weed around with me in public because the likelihood of being busted in London is quite high and I fear the consequences of being caught doing so. Bang, deterrence proved.

Really? I suspect the likelehood of being busted in town for a small amount of weed is very low indeed, certainly lower than in other parts of the UK and even then, whats likely to happen; you get a caution?
Besides, the deterrent of being busted does not actually stop you using it, it simply prevents you from carrying

 

[Spymaster]

Really? I suspect the likelehood of being busted in town for a small amount of weed is very low indeed, certainly lower than in other parts of the UK and even then, whats likely to happen; you get a caution?
Besides, the deterrent of being busted does not actually stop you using it, it simply prevents you from carrying

Are you being serious?

 

[hash tag]

On which bit?

 

[Spymaster]

The bit I quoted. It's stupid.

What are you trying to argue?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Why do you think the rate of violent crime went through the roof in the UK after the abolition of CP for example?

It coincided with a new generation of young men arriving on the scene after the previous generation were taken away and many slaughtered in WW2. Combined with the general liberalisation of society as a whole that happened from the 1960's onwards and there's your answer.

Can you show the CP reduces crime? All you've ever offered is that no one hanged goes on to kill again. When the reality is that the numbers of those imprisoned for murder who go on to kill again are fucking tiny and far less than the numbers who would be innocent and executed, or involved in the execution process who go on to kill themselves or others as a direct result of the trauma of being involved in that process.

 

[hash tag]

The deterrent of weed being illegal has not actually stopped you partaking.

 

[Spymaster]

It coincided with a new generation of young men arriving on the scene after the previous generation were taken away and many slaughtered in WW2. Combined with the general liberalisation of society as a whole that happened from the 1960's onwards and there's your answer.

So, factors other than the status of the death penalty were present in society which could have affected the crime rate. Is that what you are saying?

Can you show the CP reduces crime?

Not unequivocally, no. But then I've never said unequivocally that it does. It's you saying without a doubt that it doesn't.

 

[Spymaster]

The deterrent of weed being illegal has not actually stopped you partaking.

The deterrent is the sanction. I won't carry it in public because I fear that sanction. If I get busted with a bit of weed at home, no action will be taken against me by the police. If I got caught on the street I might get a caution or a fine. If I knew I'd go to prison if I were caught with weed, I'd never have it.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

So, factors other than the status of the death penalty were present in society which could have affected the crime rate. Is that what you are saying?

Not unequivocally, no. But then I've never said unequivocally that it does. Yet you are perfectly happy to pronounce that it doesn't on evidence no stronger!

Ah, so you are resorting to being disingenuous now.

What I said was: Capital punishment brutalises every one involved in it without reducing the crime rate.

You have not been able to show that it does reduce the crime rate. Therefore what I said is perfectly correct.

 

[Orang Utan]

Really? I suspect the likelehood of being busted in town for a small amount of weed is very low indeed, certainly lower than in other parts of the UK and even then, whats likely to happen; you get a caution?
Besides, the deterrent of being busted does not actually stop you using it, it simply prevents you from carrying

the deterrent doesn't stop me from carrying it, or even consuming it public sometimes

 

[Spymaster]

Ah, so you are resorting to being disingenuous now.

What I said was: Capital punishment brutalises every one involved in it without reducing the crime rate.

You have not been able to show that it does reduce the crime rate. Therefore what I said is perfectly correct.

What? Are you insane?

"Without reducing the crime rate".

What do you mean by that?

 

[Spymaster]

the deterrent doesn't stop me from carrying it, or even consuming it public sometimes

It's not all about you though, is it?

I asked you before; do you accept that the severity of sentencing deters some people from some crimes?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

What?

"Without reducing the crime rate".

What do you mean by that?

I mean that the rate of crime is not reduced by introducing the death penalty and it does not go up by removing such a sanction. You seem to desperately grasp hold of situations where the DP has been removed and crime gone up as proof that the world goes to pot without it, whilst simultaneously stressing that other factors are responsible for changes in crime rates, you actively argue against yourself.

 

[Orang Utan]

It's not all about you though, is it?

I asked you before; do you accept that the severity of sentencing deters some people from some crimes?

well no, but only stupid criminals get caught, and stupid people are probably undeterred by stiff sentences.

 

[Pickman's model]

well no, but only stupid criminals get caught, and stupid people are probably undeterred by stiff sentences.

right. so you're saying that the suffragettes were stupid, not to mention all the protestors found guilty of e.g. breaching socpa or the cja etc. you're calling everyone here who has been done for drugs stupid. all the gay men done for loitering etc... you're a fucking moron.

 

[Spymaster]

I mean that the rate of crime is not reduced by introducing the death penalty?

Well we don't know as it hasn't been tried, certainly not to the extent where reliable information is generated/available.

... and it does not go up by removing such a sanction.

Well the murder rate hasn't in the cases that you've outlined, but then, as you so ably demonstrated yourself, there are many other social factors that this can also be attributed to.

You seem to desperately grasp hold of situations where the DP has been removed and crime gone up as proof that the world goes to pot without it ...

Nonsense. I've never done that. I simply outlined one situation where the death penalty was abolished and the (non-homecide) crime rate increased. You then said that that was because of other social factors, which I agreed with. Now you want to turn that on its head and say that when it applies to your argument the rules change. That's disingenuous.

... you actively argue against yourself.

You are seriously confused! That's precisely what you are doing. All I've done is quote you.

 

[Orang Utan]

i was referring to the drugs really, but yes, some people have bad luck too.
People are often caught doing crime because of their stupidity though - our jails are full of people who have not considered the consequences of their actions.

 

[Pickman's model]

i was referring to the drugs really, but yes, some people have bad luck too.
People are often caught doing crime because of their stupidity though - our jails are full of people who have not considered the consequences of their actions.

but

well no, but only stupid criminals get caught

 

[Orang Utan]

but

yes.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

well no, but only stupid criminals get caught, and stupid people are probably undeterred by stiff sentences.

That's an extraordinary statement.

 

[Orang Utan]

That's an extraordinary statement.

yes, it was rather hyperbolic, wasn't it?

 

[Spymaster]

Hyper-bollocks, more like.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Hyper-bollocks, more like.

 

[Pac man]

as if a potential murderer stops themselves amidst the red mist, and goes 'ah, better not, there's the death penalty'

Most murders are pre meditated, but you make a fair point. I would imagine though that if we started giving automatic jail sentences to people that drink drive, no second or third chances, it would have a dramatic effect in reducing drink driving..I would assume that intelligence plays a large part, most murderes (pre mediated) are lacking in that department.

 

[Pickman's model]

Hyper-bollocks, more like.

that's my line pa

 

[Spymaster]

that's my line pa

If you snooze you lose, son.

 

[hash tag]

Most murders are pre meditated, but you make a fair point. I would imagine though that if we started giving automatic jail sentences to people that drink drive, no second or third chances, it would have a dramatic effect in reducing drink driving..I would assume that intelligence plays a large part, most murderes (pre mediated) are lacking in that department.

Can you prove a murder is premeditated as opposed to manslaughter?

 

[Pickman's model]

Can you prove a murder is premeditated as opposed to manslaughter?

all murders are necessarily premeditated as murder is defined as the unlawful premeditated killing of a human being.

manslaughter's where you kill them without actually meaning to.