Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[butchersapron]

Here's the British version... slower to get going - that Oregon uni HR wing has been around since 2001.
Eventually university management will start endorsing the intersectional perspective.
...

Here's the main speaker Dr Ben Brabon:

In a postfeminist era, men’s and masculinity’s relationship with feminism has been troubled – not least because at times an inverse logic is applied by critics, whereby men are represented as oppressed simply because they are men. This levelling of the field of power, combined with the continued invocation of sexist and essentialist ideas within the general media and popular press – albeit often with a sense of postmodern irony – further complicates men’s affiliation with a contemporary feminist discourse.

Men, yesterday:

 

[cesare]

Some of the radfem stuff properly feeds into all of this as well.

 

[articul8]

Posh men are twice as oppressed

 

[butchersapron]

Posh men are twice as oppressed

fuck off twat

 

[Balbi]

So this is what universities are like?

Not a pint of snakebite or kebab to be seen!

 

[articul8]

fuck off twat

that hangover not lifted i see

 

[butchersapron]

that hangover not lifted i see

Give me some money. Or tell hilary to give me some money. I'm serious.

 

[articul8]

butchersapron you what? a) what makes you think I have any money going spare and b) for what reason are you in need of it

 

[butchersapron]

butchersapron you what? a) what makes you think I have any money going spare and b) for what reason are you in need of it

Does the bubble not produce money? To shoot jackels. Does RP give money out?

 

[articul8]

No - it holds out a begging bowl.

 

[butchersapron]

No - it holds out a begging bowl.

No it doesn't. It pretends that it does whilst driving over the rest of us. 40 ft chickens.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

No - it holds out a begging bowl.

Really? Does it not pay contributors anything?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Bloody hell, sorry to hear it.

Remember this though calling out people is hard and people might need a calling out chill out tent to take a break in:

Is this real? Or was it someone taking the piss back on MATB?

 

[articul8]

Really? Does it not pay contributors anything?

Ah. This is a bit of an issue - if we paid all contributors NUJ freelance rates the mag wouldn't survive is the brute reality of it. But we aren't a "for profit" title.

 

[articul8]

No it doesn't. It pretends that it does whilst driving over the rest of us. 40 ft chickens.

hair of the dog eh?

 

[sihhi]

Is this real? Or was it someone taking the piss back on MATB?

It's a radical/socialist art/culture group in Bay Area, California

Think and Die Thinking Collective is working toward evoking a trend of DIY, all ages, youth-affordable and youth-accessible events within an accountable community. We want to acknowledge that all of these components are important and valid to a successful, radical community.
Our vision is to create a space for community members who identify with radical culture, art and music that did not exist before. One of our long term goals is to open an all-ages space in San Jose. Our purpose is NOT to promote a centralized community influence but to empower community members to be effective and proactive. We want to facilitate musical events, workshops, dance nights, give back to our community, host out-of-town bands. We want to always protect the safe spaces created for those who feel systematically othered in our community (ie. queer folks, transfolks, people of color, youth, etc.)
E-Mail us @ ThinkAndDieThinking@gmail.com

 

[Nigel Irritable]

but if somebody says something to a white person based on their race of course it's racist, how the fuck could it not be

It's a semantic argument. There is a difference between individual racial prejudice (which anyone can be subjected to) and systemic racial discrimination and prejudice (which only happens to people who are members of oppressed racial groups). Some people use "racism" to cover both, some people use "racism" for the latter only, while including the former as racial prejudice.

Pointing out that these two things are different isn't actually unreasonable in and of itself. But in practice, the attempt to use the word "racism" to draw a sharp distinction tends to create quite a bit of confusion in my experience.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Ah. This is a bit of an issue - if we paid all contributors NUJ freelance rates the mag wouldn't survive is the brute reality of it. But we aren't a "for profit" title.

Does this mean that you don't pay anyone anything? Or does it mean that some people get NUJ rates and others don't? Or that everyone gets something but it's below NUJ rates?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

It's a radical/socialist art/culture group in Bay Area, California

I'm not entirely surprised that they are from the Bay Area.

 

[articul8]

Does this mean that you don't pay anyone anything? Or does it mean that some people get NUJ rates and others don't? Or that everyone gets something but it's below NUJ rates?

We pay our production staff (our designer, production editor and sub) plus our office staff and organiser at well above LLW. Our editors don't get a penny. We don't currently pay for contributions (other than photos) except in cases where the writer incurs travel or phone expenses to research the piece.
There's no preferential treatment - the "name" writers are less likely to get expenses that someone who really needs it (btw - we don't exercise copyright, which remains with the individual author).

It's not ideal, I know. But it's not like anyone's creaming off any kind of profit from it.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

IM A FAT IMMIGRANT SHUT UP AND LET ME SPEAK!

Sadly, it turns out that according to this list of seven major liberation struggles I'm bottom of the progressive stack and will never get to speak again. At least until I'm old enough to need a hip replacement, or my eyes start failing.

I did used to be an immigrant, and got told by some Fight Racism Fight Imperialism gobshite that the English revolution depended on leadership from oppressed Irish immigrants like me. At the time I was a postgrad student at the LSE. As was she, the fucking clown. That was a hang over from a previous form of bizarro identity politics, rather than an early example of the present wave: I doubt if Irishness gets you many privilege points amongst British intersectionalistas these days.

 

[Limerick Red]

Sadly, it turns out that according to this list of seven major liberation struggles I'm bottom of the progressive stack and will never get to speak again. At least until I'm old enough to need a hip replacement, or my eyes start failing.

I did used to be an immigrant, and got told by some Fight Racism Fight Imperialism gobshite that the English revolution depended on leadership from oppressed Irish immigrants like me. At the time I was a postgrad student at the LSE. As was she, the fucking clown. That was a hang over from a previous form of bizarro identity politics, rather than an early example of the present wave: I doubt if Irishness gets you many privilege points amongst British intersectionalistas these days.

hmmmm I may have an ace up my sleave...sometimes on forms under sexuality I tick "prefer not to say" surely that would bump me up a bit?

 

[sihhi]

Sadly, it turns out that I'm bottom of the progressive stack and will never get to speak again. At least until I'm old enough to need a hip replacement, or my eyes start failing.

I did used to be an immigrant, and got told by some Fight Racism Fight Imperialism gobshite that the English revolution depended on leadership from oppressed Irish immigrants like me. At the time I was a postgrad student at the LSE. As was she, the fucking clown. That was a hang over from a previous form of bizarro identity politics, rather than an early example of the present wave: I doubt if Irishness gets you many privilege points amongst British intersectionalistas these days.

Sounds like we have an article for the Girder: 'Irish working-class males at the bottom of the progressive stack - Fighting back.'

Only consolation is you can know the identity politics stuff has transferred into the academia of your old university.

Listen to this guy Professor Michael Kimmel from 13 mins:

http://www2.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/...s/publicLecturesAndEvents/player.aspx?id=1302

'She said something startling that's how privilege works. Privilege is invisible to those who have it. And it is a luxury I would say to the white people, you know, sitting in this room not to have to think about race every split second of your life. Privilege is invisible to those who have it.'

This is his book:

This is him rearing boys dedicated to women's liberation without the oppressive psychological pincer of masculinity.

This is his book being read out:

Listen from 27 mins in on how white US working-class men feel "entitled" to jobs.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Listen from 27 mins in on how white US working-class men feel "entitled" to jobs.

It won't play for me, which, on mature reflection, is a cross I think I can bear.

Hang on, did you listen to it the whole way through? How did you know that there's funny shit half an hour in?

 

[sihhi]

It won't play for me, which, on mature reflection, is a cross I think I can bear.

Hang on, did you listen to it the whole way through? How did you know that there's funny shit half an hour in?

Tried, I couldn't bear it towards the end, goes on this whole spiel about how feminist fathers produce better 'outcomes' for themselves and their children of whatever gender.
(Half nasty undertone being single parent mothers who willingly reject male involvement won't produce as good outcomes as families where both and women work and men and women do equal participation in childcare)
Will try again later.

Molly Crabapple is here for anyone who wants to try:
http://www2.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/...s/publicLecturesAndEvents/player.aspx?id=1778

 

[frogwoman]

It's a semantic argument. There is a difference between individual racial prejudice (which anyone can be subjected to) and systemic racial discrimination and prejudice (which only happens to people who are members of oppressed racial groups). Some people use "racism" to cover both, some people use "racism" for the latter only, while including the former as racial prejudice.

Pointing out that these two things are different isn't actually unreasonable in and of itself. But in practice, the attempt to use the word "racism" to draw a sharp distinction tends to create quite a bit of confusion in my experience.

why not just say institutionalised racism then? And white people can still suffer that. To a lesser extent than other ethnic minorities (usually) but it can still happen.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

why not just say institutionalised racism then? And white people can still suffer that. To a lesser extent than other ethnic minorities (usually) but it can still happen.

In this context "systemic" involves more than simply "institutional" racism. And no, white people don't suffer systemic racism. At least not in Western Europe or North America, and not including groups like Irish Travellers for these purposes.

 

[frogwoman]

In this context "systemic" involves more than simply "institutional" racism. And no, white people don't suffer systemic racism (at least not in Western Europe or North America).

They can if they're travellers or gypsies or if they're from Eastern Europe. In certain countries and I think some parts of the US they can if they're jews. Although not this one really I think I'm OK as far as that spoke of the wheel of oppression goes.

And of course a white person can be denied a job if they're white, I'm thinking of cases Ive heard of where a white person has applied to a job at an Asian owned firm and been turned down for it despite having the necessary qualifications.

 

[sihhi]

In this context "systemic" involves more than simply "institutional" racism.

Well explain the difference please as applied to Western Europe where we are.