Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[SpineyNorman]

I was misled by the internet although this thread has him being happy with the dosh he is making from land:

http://grumpieroldmen.co.uk/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6587&start=0

Brilliant signature summing up his sexism, racism and classism: "the difference between a welfare state and a totalitarian state is a matter of time"

He's definitely not short of a few quid - no doubt about that. I imagine you could buy something not far off a mansion in a less expensive part of the country for what he paid for that place. He was a company director before he worked for the recruitment agency whose bosses the scousers err.. informed about his twitter exploits.

 

[sihhi]

I reckon the government will start investigating organisations that glorify terrorist attacks regardless of what the left do. the left isn't that important.

Quite, but the NUS has a fair whack of money and needs to do something with it.

 

[Limerick Red]

You can already basically just be arrested for expressing dissenting views if you are powerless.

Marion Price - more than 300 days in solitary confinement

 

[ViolentPanda]

The black left is winning apparently:

https://twitter.com/Roshkneee/status/334041459789537284

But can you explain this J Ed

http://5pillarsand6colours.wordpress.com/2013/04/22/im-not-a-superhero-and-thats-okay/




How can someone stand on a platform of intersectionality? Surely intersectionality is the means/analysis by which a platform, policy or politics is reached?

It does come across a bit as "vote for me because I'm w, x, y and z" rather than "vote for me because I intend to formulate and promote policy that deals with matters of w, x, y and z.

Also interesting that she self-defines as "disabled" due to occasional depression. Kind of comes across as trying to score a full house.

 

[frogwoman]

It does come across a bit as "vote for me because I'm w, x, y and z" rather than "vote for me because I intend to formulate and promote policy that deals with matters of w, x, y and z.

Also interesting that she self-defines as "disabled" due to occasional depression. Kind of comes across as trying to score a full house.

I don't call myself disabled because my problems don't affect my ability to do my work and also because I don't want my illness to make me into a victim. There are other people who are much worse off than me and deserve to be called disabled more, even though my illness has caused me some serious problems. I also don't want to define myself by the illness because i actually aim to recover from it completely.

Not saying you do but it annoys me when people do this sort of thing (the girl in the link)

 

[SpineyNorman]

The idea that there could be a working-class week at Sheffield Uni actually seems kind of absurd, if it was proposed it's not that I wouldn't be extremely supportive I'd just be surprised.

It's Nakba Day today, there's a die in on campus.

We should propose it just to see what happens. I'm game if you are.

 

[frogwoman]

Also in everything I have read about the illness I have read that you must avoid trying to see it as a part of your identity, because it will actually restrict your life more and more and more, and you must become used to seeing it as something OUTSIDE of you.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

The Anarchist Federation's various wobbles towards "Intersectionality", "Privilege" and the rest of the US radical liberal understanding of oppression, have received some attention here. I've just noticed that the Workers Solidarity Movement here in Ireland have published a theoretical article in their magazine adopting most of the same stuff, although as with the AF Women's Caucus document, there is a bit of an attempt to avoid the worst and most obvious pitfalls. As so often, the parts about race seem to be directly lifted from the US context which is particularly strange in an Irish publication (the most extreme manifestations of racism here have generally been directed against travellers).

http://www.wsm.ie/c/anarchism-intersecionality-gender-race-class

It's genuinely interesting that English language "class struggle Anarchism" is acting as a conduit for rather than bulwark against this stuff.

 

[chilango]

I'm guessing that enough participants in the "class struggle anarchist" scene have enough in common in terms of background, interests and lifestyle aspirations with elements of the "radical commentariat" to mean that they move in the same circles and are exposed to the same arguments.

 

[SpineyNorman]

You can't understand what this is like, since a white Sheffield male there is no culture which anyone else would want to appropriate from you.

Tha knows nowt. Ee by gum whippet and flat cap etc.

 

[J Ed]

We should propose it just to see what happens. I'm game if you are.

Bit late in the year for that

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I mean, class struggle anarchism is a small movement, even by the low standards of the left, and class struggle anarchist organisations of any size are only slightly more common than hen's teeth. The WSM and the AF are actually significant in that context. We are talking about the largest class struggle anarchist organisations in Ireland and Britain.

 

[Tom A]

It's genuinely interesting that English language "class struggle Anarchism" is acting as a conduit for rather than bulwark against this stuff.

IME it's the anarchists (if not self-defining as such then heavily influenced by the theory) that are the worst offenders when it comes to obsessing over privilege theory, be they of the class struggle kind or the lifesylist kind (a lot of them are a mixture of the two). The Trots I know generally have no truck with that kind of thing, but they probably wander into equally problematic traps themselves.

 

[chilango]

Tha knows nowt. Ee by gum whippet and flat cap etc.

"Youth" is that a Sheffield term?

 

[sihhi]

Confusing. What do you make of this charlie mowbray ?

If class is understood as being simply a matter of economics, and particularly those aspects of capitalist economics that appear most pressing to white heterosexual men; if class-centricity means that a deep understanding of the way in which capitalism produces capitalists and workers is essential for all anarchists, while deep understandings of the way in which patriarchy produces men and women, and white supremacism produces white people in relation to a multiplicity of (in) subordinate races[15], are not; then class must be removed from the centre of our theory. If, however, class is understood as encompassing the totality of hierarchical social relations, as being the product of many systems acting sometimes in concert and sometimes autonomously of one another, and moreover as bringing together a diversity of experiences and struggles in a spirit of solidarity and mutual recognition, then this is precisely the heart of anarchism.

I still dislike the word and its associations for North London, 2013.

 

[cesare]

I mean, class struggle anarchism is a small movement, even by the low standards of the left, and class struggle anarchist organisations of any size are only slightly more common than hen's teeth. The WSM and the AF are actually significant in that context. We are talking about the largest class struggle anarchist organisations in Ireland and Britain.

You think the IWA's a small movement?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

IME it's the anarchists (if not self-defining as such then heavily influenced by the theory) that are the worst offenders when it comes to obsessing over privilege theory, be they of the class struggle kind or the lifesylist kind (a lot of them are a mixture of the two). The Trots I know generally have no truck with that kind of thing, but they probably wander into equally problematic traps themselves.

Generally this is true, in part because Trotskyists tend to be more concerned with the coherence of their theoretical outlook, and so are slower to simply jam entirely new and ill fitting bits into it. But it's not universal: Look for instance at elements of the SWP dissidents. I even encountered a Socialist Party member who was into "intersectionality" on twitter, which genuinely astonished me.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The more aggressive and self serving/politically deluded will use it as a tactic. The people that actually could do with a bit of a temporary respite/calm in the middle of a storm will be encouraged to retreat into designated space spaces instead of getting stronger.

Edited to add a bit

It strikes me that using it as a tactic both indiccates the instrumentality of the person deploying it, and also signals that their "Interest" is ultimately non-constructive, because the tactic can't be built on. It holds the seeds of it's own destruction.

 

[phildwyer]

Listen to what Malcolm Harris said:

"Colour-blind racism defends itself by appeals to neutrality and meritocracy, accusing its adversaries of being ‘the real racists’. Although its moves are predictable, they’re hard to combat rhetorically since they’re able to ingest the conventional opposition scripts. Colour-blind racists feed on good-faith debate, and engaging with them, especially online, is almost always futile.''

That's true enough actually. A ton of people who consıder themselves on the ''Left'' thınk ıt's terrıbly clever to be ''color blınd,'' whıch basıcally seems to ınvolve pretendıng ınstıtutıonal racısm doesn't exıst.

 

[ViolentPanda]

what the fuck how could you take an innocent film like groundhog day which is one of the most feel good and nice films imaginable and turn it into a plot about rape?

I hate to think what a review of Baise-Moi would read like!

 

[Nigel Irritable]

You think the IWA's a small movement?

Yes. The IWA is a tiny, irrelevant, movement. It represents a large majority of organised class struggle anarchists, and in a couple of countries its affiliates are quite substantial on the midget scale of the far left, but by any objective measure it's a small movement.

 

[cesare]

It strikes me that using it as a tactic both indiccates the instrumentality of the person deploying it, and also signals that their "Interest" is ultimately non-constructive, because the tactic can't be built on. It holds the seeds of it's own destruction.

Yes, I agree. It can hold the seeds of destruction for class struggle movements in its wake though.

 

[phildwyer]

This is like a flood of white tears etc. Black people are just structurally oppressed in Britain, it's the way it is. Their wealth was stolen from them by slavery and Britain has made no reparation for the descendents of this act of oppression.
Hence, your finding some Nigerians who arrived in the fifties living in Lewisham having parties at the weekend surrounded by a mixed community who don't mind the BEN music piping away is irrelevant. White people may experience racism from other white people yes, but only white people structurally inflict/have inflicted racism on others, moulding their psychological mindsets.

Yep.

To deny any of thıs ıs to belıeve that hıstory does not create the present. Somethıng that only a fool belıeves.

 

[phildwyer]

How can someone stand on a platform of intersectionality?

Even more to the poınt, how can someone argue that the fact that they suffer from mental ıllness ıs a reason to vote for them?

The world has gone mad. Lıterally.

 

[muscovyduck]

Even more to the poınt, how can someone argue that the fact that they suffer from mental ıllness ıs a reason to vote for them?

I'm not sure I like the general point you're making there. Care to elaborate?

 

[Delroy Booth]

The Anarchist Federation's various wobbles towards "Intersectionality", "Privilege" and the rest of the US radical liberal understanding of oppression, have received some attention here. I've just noticed that the Workers Solidarity Movement here in Ireland have published a theoretical article in their magazine adopting most of the same stuff, although as with the AF Women's Caucus document, there is a bit of an attempt to avoid the worst and most obvious pitfalls. As so often, the parts about race seem to be directly lifted from the US context which is particularly strange in an Irish publication (the most extreme manifestations of racism here have generally been directed against travellers).

http://www.wsm.ie/c/anarchism-intersecionality-gender-race-class

It's genuinely interesting that English language "class struggle Anarchism" is acting as a conduit for rather than bulwark against this stuff.

Yeah I'm genuinely astonished at how quickly some of the people who I follow on twitter are prepared to abandon the core principles of Anarchism rather than challenge this stuff, I didn't think they'd be that much of a pushover tbh I thought it'd take a few years for class struggle anarchism to be replaced by this stuff.

Let's all go to intersectional island - a safe space for juggalo's.

 

[caleb]

The black left is winning apparently:

https://twitter.com/Roshkneee/status/334041459789537284

But can you explain this J Ed

http://5pillarsand6colours.wordpress.com/2013/04/22/im-not-a-superhero-and-thats-okay/

​

I define as disabled because of my mental health issues. I have struggled with depression on and off for years in varying degrees, I find stressful situations sometimes more difficult than most and am now realising that the ‘spoon theory’ is something which I increasingly find myself fitting into and indeed using.​

​

How can someone stand on a platform of intersectionality? Surely intersectionality is the means/analysis by which a platform, policy or politics is reached?

I've seen this sort of thing before, and I'm really unsure how I feel about it, though I guess it makes me feel uncomfortable. As somebody who has suffered from depression to the extent that it has affected my ability to study and work (in quite significant ways), I can see that it is a 'disability', but I definitely wouldn't feel right "self-identifying" as disabled, and I can't help but feel there's something cynical about doing so. Of course, from my own experience mental health can have a great impact on your physical well-being too, but by the logic of privilegistas themselves, can an otherwise physically-able person who suffers from depression really speak on behalf of a person whose disability leaves them immobile?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Bit late in the year for that

I'm about next year if you are (I've got to re-sit the second semester cos I missed loads of time for family stuff)

 

[phildwyer]

I'm not sure I like the general point you're making there. Care to elaborate?

I mean that advertızıng one's mental ıllness ıs a stupıd way to try to wın an electıon.

 

[SpineyNorman]

"Youth" is that a Sheffield term?

Yep, and ey up. Nesh too. There's loads, you hear local dialect type stuff round here all the time.