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Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

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muscovyduck I hope this does not sound patronising but you are way more clever than me when I was 17, at least you have the right idea, when i was your age i was a zionist :facepalm:

i would honestly never ever have guessed you were that age, i might have seemed clever on here but i was an absolute moron :facepalm:
 
ymu said:
Why aren't you having a pop at J Ed? He posted it first and then later commented on it. Surely a much more worthy target of your righteous ire?
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What ire? Why do you think he's angry? He's not, he's just permanently grumpy because his cricket team is shit.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Is it true you had a poster of Jabotinsky on your wall? :p
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i didn't know who jabotinsky was, i didn't know who any of them were really. i felt sorry for ariel sharon when he had his coma and thought people didn't like him because they wanted to slag off israel :D
 
seriously, i didn't even know who most of these people were, and if someone had mentioned jabotinsky or whatever to me and some of the things they did, i'd just assume that was propaganda to slag off israel, i remember telling people that many of the things israel were supposed to have done was filmed by people to make money and that sort of stuff

i was a fucking idiot, a bit racist as well. i don't mind admitting it now though, and i know that if i had known (and believed) the truth of what was going on there, i'd never have agreed with it at all but i had all these naive views about it. i don't think i ever agreed with it all tbh, but i could like rationalise it so that i did and i can remember argueing things with people which if i heard now it would literally be the land of a thousand facepalms

at least i found this stuff out for myself though, i dont mind laughing about it now, but its given me at least a bit of an insight into the sort of pseudo answers that zionism etc can provide.

there are loads of people out there who were way more intelligent and mature than i was at my age, they might not be so now, but when i look at that entire period of my life and what an absolute dick i was at times, it just convinces me that the whole conept of intelligence is a bit flawed tbh :D
 
butchersapron said:
The role of journalist, and what it requires to exist, the role of specialists and what social-relations they demand (bit of immanent critique there), how recuperation works, how social-movements talk to themselves - not whether something is a good bit of writing that you (not you personally) agree with or not.
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You forgot "how 'specialists' are made, and by whom". :)
 
binka said:
whats happened to this topic? firky trying his best to act like he is grown up and mature now, complaints that butchers isn't arguing with enough people. the last twenty or so pages have been proper rubbish
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That never happened. Phonebox/fight/onhisown
 
J Ed said:
Why do you think that is? I mean, I have nothing really to contribute to criticism to Seumas Milne, I don't know about the specifics of the case but the overall narrative that he's suggesting seems plausible to me. Regardless of his class background, he's always struck me as one of the better contributors to cif, I like his articles on Latin America.

What is wrong with Greenwald? I have to admit, I really like him and have for some time. His work on Portuguese drug policy is great.

I haven't followed the Assange issue very closely, but what are the criticisms of either of these two?
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Milne is better but it's very student anti-imperialism.

With Assange, read the article. He ties a safety rope and then proceeds to lie about the Swedish legal process. He is not wanted for questioning, he is wanted to face charges in court, is the first. But there's a pack of myths in there. Jack of Kent/David Allen Green kept updating legal sources and debunking myths for a while.

For Milne, it demonstrates shit instincts in the first place (it clearly was not a set-up by that point) and a willingness to trivialise rape when it suits the situation. And shoddy journalism because I sent him several verifiable legit sources and he refused to correct his errors, which means they are now deliberate lies.

Glenn Greenwald is all over the fucking place. He has this astonishing ramble- blog on Assange. He's trying to do a Hitchens backwards I think. Supported war on Iraq, now all frothy-mouthed anti-imperialist and all-round American Liberal.

The heroes and villains framework is a bit limiting. Milne has produced some useful work. Everyone mentioned or posting on this thread has also. And all have been idiots or mistaken or misled or a bit of a cunt at times too.

It doesn't strike me as very useful.

Assange took down a few people - Chomsky being the most regretful and Greenwald the least (outside the celebrity wank club). Milne has got off too lightly, I think. He belongs with the other flawed and self-appointed spokespeople of the left. I'll dig out the tweets if that is still possible, but that article (inc date and what had been published in English by that time) proves that he was intent on telling a convenient story, not illuminating anything like the truth.

I am not an obsessive watcher of the game. I want the game to be over. If any of those who do pay attention have some dirt on this dishonest little poser, and feel up to posting it, that would be interesting.
 
frogwoman said:
seriously, i didn't even know who most of these people were, and if someone had mentioned jabotinsky or whatever to me and some of the things they did, i'd just assume that was propaganda to slag off israel, i remember telling people that many of the things israel were supposed to have done was filmed by people to make money and that sort of stuff

i was a fucking idiot, a bit racist as well. i don't mind admitting it now though, and i know that if i had known (and believed) the truth of what was going on there, i'd never have agreed with it at all but i had all these naive views about it. i don't think i ever agreed with it all tbh, but i could like rationalise it so that i did and i can remember argueing things with people which if i heard now it would literally be the land of a thousand facepalms

at least i found this stuff out for myself though, i dont mind laughing about it now, but its given me at least a bit of an insight into the sort of pseudo answers that zionism etc can provide.

there are loads of people out there who were way more intelligent and mature than i was at my age, they might not be so now, but when i look at that entire period of my life and what an absolute dick i was at times, it just convinces me that the whole conept of intelligence is a bit flawed tbh :D
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Thing is, you did "the right thing" and chose to educate yourself. Then, when the facts didn't fit your opinions, you changed your opinions.
You'd be surprised how many people don't and won't do that.
 
ViolentPanda said:
What ire? Why do you think he's angry? He's not, he's just permanently grumpy because his cricket team is shit.
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And picking on the second person to mention it, and she didn't even post the article. Whilst completely ignoring the bloke who did post it and made a second post on the topic.

A bloke I have a lot of respect for. It is @butchersapron's choice of target (singular) that I am raising an eyebrow at. It strikes me as a little strange. Perhaps it is just me.
 
frogwoman said:
seriously, i didn't even know who most of these people were, and if someone had mentioned jabotinsky or whatever to me and some of the things they did, i'd just assume that was propaganda to slag off israel, i remember telling people that many of the things israel were supposed to have done was filmed by people to make money and that sort of stuff

i was a fucking idiot, a bit racist as well. i don't mind admitting it now though, and i know that if i had known (and believed) the truth of what was going on there, i'd never have agreed with it at all but i had all these naive views about it. i don't think i ever agreed with it all tbh, but i could like rationalise it so that i did and i can remember argueing things with people which if i heard now it would literally be the land of a thousand facepalms

at least i found this stuff out for myself though, i dont mind laughing about it now, but its given me at least a bit of an insight into the sort of pseudo answers that zionism etc can provide.

there are loads of people out there who were way more intelligent and mature than i was at my age, they might not be so now, but when i look at that entire period of my life and what an absolute dick i was at times, it just convinces me that the whole conept of intelligence is a bit flawed tbh :D
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You were never a dick. There was a lot of surprise when people found out how old you were and it continued for 10 years everytime someone matched your current age with your log-in age and accused you of bull-shitting. :D
 
ViolentPanda said:
Thing is, you did "the right thing" and chose to educate yourself. Then, when the facts didn't fit your opinions, you changed your opinions.
You'd be surprised how many people don't and won't do that.
Click to expand...

thing is, i think anyone can change their opinions given the right circumstances, to be honest i'm glad i wasn't born a few years later when the occupy movement was going on, and i actually had things like the iraq war protests back to look on, i could imagine my teenage self getting involved in something pretty nasty if i'd been born a few years later and my associations with the left had been with things like the occupy movement and if i hadn't had this website, i think this website actually helped to educate me out of the bullshit zionism even if i didn't really believe a lot of you at the time.

I was a bit of a conspiraloon as well and had a "unique" zionist take on 9/11 and the iraq war :D:facepalm:

i think anyone can change their opinions. i think a lot of it is also how other opposing views appear to you at the time, like if they appear reasonable and rational then although you might not accept them at the time you're more likely to consider them later on.
 
ymu said:
You were never a dick. There was a lot of surprise when people found out how old you were and it continued for 10 years everytime someone matched your current age with your log-in age and accused you of bull-shitting. :D
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i was a dick, offline and on other forums, trust me on this.
 
J Ed said:
I've never really managed to get to the bottom of that, Sam Harris accused Greenwald of in the past supporting the Iraq war but all the claims I have read so far have been pretty unconvincing http://thedailybanter.com/2013/04/glenn-greenwalds-hilarious-denial-about-his-support-for-iraq-war/
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Pretty simple i think. He supported it. He tries to put it within the context of a developing awareness, but refuses to really own it as it puts his current focus under pressure - why is he not not being led up the path today etc? How was he able to be so naive at that time etc, hero worship rather than critique etc The John Gray credibility problem.
 
love detective said:
what's wrong ymu, only a few hours ago on another thread you yourself were demanding that people present evidence when accusing others on the thread of doing something

In these hysterical times, please have the courtesy to prove your allegation when making it.

seems like the old evidence to back up claims route is something you're only in favour of when it suits you - sincerity shining through indeed
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The evidence is in your attempt to undermine Firky by insinuating that he was a paedo and, deliberately or carelessly, demean a 17 year old woman by implying that her primary purpose, now that it is known that she is a young woman, is to receive unwanted sexual attention from men.

Thanks for that. And all the other ways you have made it clear over the last few pages that your gloriously righteous theory is precisely skin deep. You don't give a shit and you don't even see why you should.

Like I said, you're part of the problem. You've actually managed to pick and then repeatedly defend the wrong line the week fucking Laurie Penny gets it near spot on and whilst the SWP is still imploding due to its own lack of sincerity on the 'women are part of the class too' line.

Fucking disgraceful.
 
equationgirl said:
Can we please just stop sniping at each other and get on with the thread? Now?
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i'll post what i like thanks

you, ymu and toggle may be keen to let this mystery person who claimed Penny had lied about being raped retain their anonymity, but don't see why everyone should take the same view on it
 
frogwoman said:
I was a bit of a conspiraloon as well and had a "unique" zionist take on 9/11 and the iraq war :D:facepalm:

i think anyone can change their opinions. i think a lot of it is also how other opposing views appear to you at the time, like if they appear reasonable and rational then although you might not accept them at the time you're more likely to consider them later on.
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ymu this is why I'm reluctant to criticise Greenwald too much for his previous ambivalence re: the Iraq War, especially since he's a very important voice speaking against Obama's wars and assault on civil liberties. I quite like his writing too, although the constant sarcasm isn't for everyone...

I absolutely take the point on his approach to Assange, though some good might have come out of both of that and the SWP scandal in that it exposed a lot of latent misogyny and misplaced solidarity that people were in denial about. Hopefully that will lead to better behaviour in the future.

I dunno about the good guys vs bad guys narrative being unhelpful, as human beings it's very difficult to escape that sort of dichotomy. It's built in as a defence mechanism, and I'm not entirely sure we should resist that when it comes to a lot of Anglo-American foreign policy, especially when I think about recent episodes like the coup in Honduras and the current US attempts to delegitimise the Venezuelan government. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong about making a moral case for certain issues.
 
ymu said:
The evidence is in your attempt to undermine Firky by insinuating that he was a paedo and, deliberately or carelessly, demean a 17 year old woman by implying that her primary purpose, now that it is known that she is a young woman, is to receive unwanted sexual attention from men.
Click to expand...

That's not fair. It's a joke that goes back some years, between love detective, revol, madusa, a few others and myself. It's so old that I can't even remember how it started, I think it originated on another forum. I missed it on this occasion and did take it the wrong way but I don't think any offence was really taken and LD has apologised.
 
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