Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[ViolentPanda]

You are still allowed to sit behind someone and make the slow wanking motion though?

Depends whether it's the gesture you're performing, or the act itself, I expect!

 

[JimW]

Depends whether it's the gesture you're performing, or the act itself, I expect!

I'm not that progressively stacked, gestures only.

 

[Casually Red]

TBF, if that were actually the case, the dirty rotten bastards would be teaching people mimes, not sign language!

its conditioning, theyre dealing with remedial cases at this point . Im quite sure theyve a whole hipster case full of new tricks to teach people .

 

[Treacle Toes]

So people already have a set of commonly understood hand signals? Why not just stick with them then?

Have they always existed? Does everyone, everywhere in the world use them? Why are they used? What value do they have? What is wrong with having a few more to use in certain contexts?

 

[Casually Red]

You don't need a progressive stack to stop that, just a decent right jab.

or maybe a left

 

[Casually Red]

Have they always existed? Does everyone, everywhere in the world use them? Why are they used? What value do they have? What is wrong with having a few more to use in certain contexts?

because these ones make people look like wankers

and they dont work

and they exclude people from debate

 

[Treacle Toes]

I think we should have local hand signals for local people.

 

[Treacle Toes]

because these ones make people look like wankers

You do know the semi-international hand signal for 'wanker' don't you?

 

[DotCommunist]

Special forces teams communicate with handslang as well but if you laughed and called it jazzhands they'd make you wear your balls for earings

 

[Casually Red]

You do know the semi-international hand signal for 'wanker' don't you?

indeed

its the sign normal people make when walking away in disgust from jazz handing hipsters sitting on the ground proclaiming revolution

 

[ViolentPanda]

A shibboleth? ( Of which we must have none).

I'll have mine with a plate of chips and a pint of Old Rosie, please!

 

[Treacle Toes]

and they dont work

Eh? In my experience they do help with what they are designed to...less interuption, more order and flow etc. What experience do you have of them?

and they exclude people from debate

Have you felt excluded? Or are you imagining others would?

 

[Casually Red]

Special forces teams communicate with handslang as well but if you laughed and called it jazzhands they'd make you wear your balls for earings

yeah biut they have to do that because of someone heard them talking thered be incoming heavy gunfire . Sadly this other mob dont have that excuse .

 

[Treacle Toes]

indeed

its the sign normal people make when walking away in disgust from jazz handing hipsters sitting on the ground proclaiming revolution

Normal people eh? You live in a world of normal and ab-normal people?

Whilst I think you have every right not to like 'hand signals' I am finding it hard to take you seriously on account of you basing your argument on such rigid definers/the idea that there are normal and abnormal people.

Do you use those definers to judge the value/usefulness of other things as well?

 

[DrRingDing]

Far better (and more practical) just to have a chair/facilitator who actually knows what they're doing...

How does a facilitator do that?

 

[Casually Red]

Have you felt excluded? Or are you imagining others would?

Ill be quite frank with you I would absolutely refuse to participate in a gathering where that was expected of me . I would view it as bereft of credibility and an assault on my own personal dignity . I feel humiliated enough as it is in my work and economic situation and just dont need that additional humiliation heaped on me by being made jump through someone elses hoops in order to fit into their world view . I regard it as infantile, like something I experienced in nursery school, and as a grown adult would take actual offence at ever being made sit through it, or worse, participate in it .
And although Im not a spokesperson for anyone else Im very very very sure almost everyone else I know in my own political and working circles would take a very similar view . I honestly dont believe its just me who would have a serious problem with it . In fact if there was something designed to specifically alienate working class participation in a social project I cant think of anything more fit for purpose .
Thats my honest feelings on the subject .

 

[DrRingDing]

Ill be quite frank with you I would absolutely refuse to participate in a gathering where that was expected of me . I would view it as bereft of credibility and an assault on my own personal dignity . I feel humiliated enough as it is in my work and economic situation and just dont need that additional humiliation heaped on me by being made jump through someone elses hoops in order to fit into their world view . I regard it as infantile, like something I experienced in nursery school, and as a grown adult would take actual offence at ever being made sit through it, or worse, participate in it .
And although Im not a spokesperson for anyone else Im very very very sure almost everyone else I know in my own political and working circles would take a very similar view . I honestly dont believe its just me who would have a serious problem with it . In fact if there was something designed to specifically alienate working class participation in a social project I cant think of anything more fit for purpose .
Thats my honest feelings on the subject .

So raising your hand and waiting your turn to speak is below you?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed 7s
I don't suppose there's anybody in NYC who really really really wants to buy a 2 year old Macbook covered in revolutionary stickers?

Anyone?

 

[Casually Red]

Normal people eh? You live in a world of normal and ab-normal people??

I live in a world were its very difficult indeed to engage with my fellow workers on political and social issues, impossible to get any solidarity or radicalisation to the point of even getting a union organised . Where English soccer clubs seem the safe subject of almost every conversation and everyone keeps their heads down in fear of being sacked , as well as absolutely atrocious and sometimes dangerous working conditions .
And I can assure you if by some miracle I ever got to the point were i persuaded any of them to attend a left wing event were this stuff was going on theyd simply turn on their heels and never look back . Thats before they even got to hear sentiments such as white males take a seat or whatever, which would possibly result in physical violence . I can also picture my bosses pissing themselves laughing once their spies report back . Maybe that picture in my head is why i take such a vehement reaction to it . But I am as sure of that as I am of the sun rising tomorrow morning .
Thats why i regard it as not just an affront to grown mens dignity and intelligence but structurally anti working class and therefore exclusive by design and intent . It has the hallmarks of yet another bourgeouis clique, positively reeks of it .

 

[Casually Red]

So raising your hand and waiting your turn to speak is below you?

yes, thats plainly what i said .

 

[sihhi]

So neither adopted nor rejected, leaving some members peddling it and others not?

It has been refered to by members of AF in a personal capacity e.g. in a post sent on the ainfos list.

Obviously some within the AF seem to agree with it, but the majority don't because it is not part of the aims and principles or any official conference decisions.

 

[DrRingDing]

Anyone?

Oh maybe we could have a whip 'round and get the cash and have a good old analyse of her hard drive.

 

[DrRingDing]

yes, thats plainly what i said .

That's basically what you're getting upset by. I don't know why you feel so slighted.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Normal people eh? You live in a world of normal and ab-normal people?

Yes, and patronising, twinkle-fingered, jazz-handed loons are a clear example of abnormality. Seems pretty obvious to me, tbh.

 

[DotCommunist]

Anyone?

she should go crack converters like the rest of us

 

[Random]

That's basically what you're getting upset by. I don't know why you feel so slighted.

And you're so proud of not knowing. Go on. Shut yourselves up in those meetings and fade away.

 

[Firky]

Covered in revolutionary stickers. Fuck sake.

 

[DrRingDing]

So, what's a better alternative for meetings. Seriously?

 

[DotCommunist]

Covered in revolutionary stickers. Fuck sake.

bit of white spirit on a damp rag and you could get it saleable to any pawnshop

 

[Treacle Toes]

Yes, and patronising, twinkle-fingered, jazz-handed loons are a clear example of abnormality. Seems pretty obvious to me, tbh.

Because using these hand signals now and again in certain meetings/contexts is all that they are and can be. Yeah, obviously.