Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[J Ed]

Cringe cringe cringe cringe

 

[tufty79]

As someone who hasn't been to a political meeting in donkey's years, I'm not sure this approach is totally bad. I'd much rather go along to something that sounds sociable and where I can easily escape if necessary. If it's my cup of tea I can then get a bit more involved. And I can then go to the bedroom tax demo the next day and actually know people, rather than stand around on the edge feeling a bit of a tit while some trot shouts into a microphone.

Now I'm not saying these guys have sound politics but they've at least manage to design a political meeting that sounds like fun.

fair point. all the local/community meetings that hands of our homes have organised in the last six months have merely provided tea

(and yes, this is me btw )

 

[tufty79]

I've never met a 'professional activist' before.

they're fun.
right. sorry for the derail, i just wanted to explode grumpily somewhere for a minute.

 

[treelover]

Students, swearing.

The guy with the long hair, Merrick, is not a student, and he has done lots of good work..

 

[J Ed]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/18/are-you-too-white-rich-straight-to-be-feminist the commentariat is eating itself

 

[tufty79]

The guy with the long hair, Merrick, is not a student, and he has done lots of good work..

aye. got some of it into the 'penguin book of 20th century protest' too.

look out for his upcoming book on peter wells. he managed to track down and doorstep people who didn't want to be found, and as a result one of them is now in therapy . he forgot to think about the consequences of his actions (in m's own words).

 

[ViolentPanda]

At the risk of a pasting, isn't he genuinely a better journalist who means it more than Laurie?

Feel a bit nervous about possible replies.

Why?

I think they both "mean it", but OJ brings a depth of political and historical understanding to his writing that's missing from LP's writing. I might not agree with what he says (what with him being a "vote labour with no illusions" kind-of-guy, a position I find very difficult to reconcile with reality!), but he says it reasonably well, and he doesn't do disingenuousness on anything like the scale of other "bubblers".

 

[seventh bullet]

they're fun.

A social worker who sometimes posts here had some PhD radical social change uni lecturer mate turn up on his BMX to a Leeds student pub a few years ago.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Cringe cringe cringe cringe

Good grief, 2 mins hate?

 

[ViolentPanda]

It was him Firks.

No it wasn't.

You are Spartacus!!!

 

[Fozzie Bear]

The guy with the long hair, Merrick, is not a student, and he has done lots of good work..

I've known Merrick for about 20 years. He has done lots of good things.

I think he is still a bit "studenty" though, especially in some of his cultural projects (for example the radio show he did about ten years ago).

We've had a couple of lengthy discussions about it , and I still care about him a great deal.

 

[ViolentPanda]

One thing I notice when I read her articles is that you don't even have to be thinking very hard or even know that much to find the mistakes. Wasn't "managed decline" a term used with specific reference to Liverpool in a government document? It wasn't about inner cities areas in general and certainly not about inner London ones.

It's all so clumsy.

Yep, that was certainly the genesis of the term. Came to light the 30 year rule stuff declassified at the end of 2011. Howe (then chancellor) on Liverpool.

 

[Favelado]

Why?

My politics are very similar to Owen's - I feel like a shocking left-wing Trot most times I'm at a wedding or something and talking to some randomer but I'm a far-right pig-dog on U75.

 

[Blagsta]

aye. got some of it into the 'penguin book of 20th century protest' too.

look out for his upcoming book on peter wells. he managed to track down and doorstep people who didn't want to be found, and as a result one of them is now in therapy . he forgot to think about the consequences of his actions (in m's own words).

Who is Peter Wells?

 

[ViolentPanda]

No envy here really. I actually know Tony Benn.

The real boast is when you can say "Tony Benn knows me".

 

[Idris2002]

The real boast is when you can say "Tony Benn knows me".

"Lloyd George knew my mother".

 

[tufty79]

Who is Peter Wells?

miscarriage of justice (i might be using the wrong words there, i've not had coffee), now dead. other people from his life aren't though.
wiki: 'Wells was a young man who had been imprisoned for sex with an 18-year-old man. Had his partner been a woman it would have been legal, but the gay age of consent was 21 as opposed to 16 for heterosexuals'.

http://dustonthestylus.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/tom-robinson-glad-to-be-gay-79-mp3.html

Have you heard the story about Peter Wells​

Who one day was arrested and dragged to the cells​

For being in love with a man of 18​

The vicar found out they’d been having a scene​

The magistrates sent him for trial by the Crown​

He even appealed but they still sent him down​

He was only mistreated a couple of years​

Cos even in prison they look after the queers​

*joins the 'ive known m for 20 years' club*
actually, make that seventeen, otherwise i'd have been horrendously young.

 

[andysays]

Now I'm not saying these guys have sound politics but they've at least manage to design a political meeting that sounds like fun.

Sounds like fun?

There will be plenty of time for fun after the revolution, comrade. What's required now is for all committed members of the class to surrender their individuality to the Vanguard Party.

Less fun; more paper sales.

 

[andysays]

nope. wrong.
Seasoned, professional activists/radical routes and worker co-op members swearing. not a sniff of student among 'em. unless you count the performance poets

Have you ever tried to count the performance poets, though?

There's fucking loads of them for a start, and they absolutely refuse to stand still for long enough to be counted - too hung up on their own artistic expression...

 

[ViolentPanda]

These people obviously do not "represent" the working class, or "the left" (whatever that is) in any adequate way. And they might be wankers. And? Why should they be held responsible for representing any one other than themselves? It just seems to me that the working class is in every way responsible and capable of representing itself. And if that does not seem to be happening in an adequate way, the working class is responsible for that failing.

It must be nice to be able to entirely elide the idea of social capital and the imbalances between the classes that it causes from your intellectual repertoire.

To project the responsibility of representation on some random, young middle-class-oxbridge journalist(s) - regardless if they delude themselves to believe that this is something they are actually doing - seems to me to be a declaration of failure. The working class is not some pitiable five year old who has to beg representation from random middle-class journalists. It's the largest and best organized faction of a modern capitalist society. Or at least it should be.

Yes, it should. Odd how so much legislation has been produced in the last 30 years that serves to stop or slow us organising or even expressing solidarity withe ach other. One would almost think that might have something to do with the current situation where faux-rebellious members of the chattering classes believe that they can stand as a vanguard for us!

But then again, I'm from Norway, so that's how we do these things. It seems that you've lost the plot.

Or perhaps you're being culturally-imperialistic, and/or confusing your rather smaller polity with our rather larger one, and believing that your solutions would flawlessly scale up so as to be amenable to being applied here?

 

[TruXta]

He's a fucking embarassment to my country.

 

[chilango]

These people could "start" out believing what he saysgetting involved in Labour etc and end up coming to their own conclusion (hopefully that it's bollocks, but maybe that it isn't) so in that sense owen jones could actually be doing some good couldn't he?

or am i being naive?

I dunno about doing some "good", but he's certainly a more enticing figure than LP and so is his politics.

That is one of the dangerous bits.

LP offers absolutely nothing. Pure parasitism.

Though her increasingly obnoxious character, like the other nauseating examples in her milieu, will no doubt turn plenty of curious people away from the idea of the "left" as any sort of vehicle for change.

Jones otoh is the opposite. He comes across as an approachable, even affable, nice guy with plenty of common sense. He says plenty of things, which on the surface at least, are pretty reasonable. And he often says them well.

Hmmm.

 

[ymu]

(You, on the other hand, would be having to look at setting up FirkyCommentingLtd as a way of minimising your tax liability )

You know he's recovering from an operation, right? You know there are housebound people posting all over these boards, right? You're aware that people not like you exist and use their time in different ways because they have different choices, right?

You don't listen. You should.

Yeah, I know. I'm going off on one for trivial shit again. I mean, what's the point in refusing to accept the rich, white, straight, cis, able-bodied male point of view? They're the leaders of our class, right? No point in challenging that.

/fuck off

 

[ymu]

be my guest.

For a discussion of class-based feminism?

Did it need a on the end to make the point clear?

 

[andysays]

You know he's recovering from an operation, right? You know there are housebound people posting all over these boards, right? You're aware that people not like you exist and use their time in different ways because they have different choices, right?

You don't listen. You should.

Yeah, I know. I'm going off on one for trivial shit again. I mean, what's the point in refusing to accept the rich, white, straight, cis, able-bodied male point of view? They're the leaders of our class, right? No point in challenging that.

/fuck off

No, I didn't know that Firky was recovering from an operation (hope that's going well, Firky)

But yes, I know all the other stuff you mention.

Are you suggesting that my comment carries with it a suggestion of criticism of someone for spending too much time here or making too many posts, because if so you're totally wide of the mark (and totally out of order for jumping to such an unwarranted conclusion).

 

[ViolentPanda]

He's a fucking embarassment to my country.

Wasn't that raving rightist "libertarian" who graced us with his presence a couple of years ago also one of your fellow-countrymen?

 

[Nylock]

These people obviously do not "represent" the working class, or "the left" (whatever that is) in any adequate way.

Thanks for letting me in on that one, Captain Obvious.

And they might be wankers. And? Why should they be held responsible for representing any one other than themselves?

Because the worst examples of this group are held up and lauded as representatives of others rather than just themselves and when they are trotted out to speak on 'our' behalf it's inevitably embarrassing and says very little about struggle but a whole heck of a lot about them and their works.

It just seems to me that the working class is in every way responsible and capable of representing itself. And if that does not seem to be happening in an adequate way, the working class is responsible for that failing. To project the responsibility of representation on some random, young middle-class-oxbridge journalist(s) - regardless if they delude themselves to believe that this is something they are actually doing - seems to me to be a declaration of failure. The working class is not some pitiable five year old who has to beg representation from random middle-class journalists. It's the largest and best organized faction of a modern capitalist society. Or at least it should be. But then again, I'm from Norway, so that's how we do these things. It seems that you've lost the plot.

The working class may be an organised force to be reckoned with in Norway -but we are not fucking Norway. Not being from Norway, i have no idea what your government has spent it's North Sea Oil wealth on since the late '70s but over here in the UK we are fully aware of what our government spent a significant amount of those oil revenues on: The atomisation of society, the destruction of our manufacturing base (which was a part of the source of power for our unions (a united 'society' being another part)), the crushing of the trades union movement and the breaking of the working class by evil divide and rule/every man for himself tactics.

I'm glad life for you is so good in Norway, that you have a working class that is an organised force to be reckoned with and that you feel eminently qualified to speak about political life here in the UK. However, if I were you, I'd pray to whatever deity you hold dear that you never have a prime minister like Margaret Thatcher and the gallery of sneering hubristic cunts and smug arseholes that followed her. Pray it never happens to you, because if it does -what we have to tolerate here is your future.

 

[ymu]

No, I didn't know that Firky was recovering from an operation (hope that's going well, Firky)

But yes, I know all the other stuff you mention.

Are you suggesting that my comment carries with it a suggestion of criticism of someone for spending too much time here or making too many posts, because if so you're totally wide of the mark (and totally out of order for jumping to such an unwarranted conclusion).

Yes, that is what I am suggesting, from the perspective of someone who is semi-housebound due to disability and largely unemployed for the same reasons.

You're free to explain what you actually meant by it, of course. I can't say I care any more. You have repeatedly demonstrated that you just don't get why your perspective is simply inadequate for addressing an issue that affects people with a completely different perspective and I'm not going to disrupt this thread any more. There's dozens of fucked up ones you can trawl through to find the gems you need. I'll not be doing your homework for you.

I'm not saying don't respond to this, only that I'm going to stop posting on this thread for a while because I am not in the habit of being the troll, nor persisting with circular arguments in an off-topic thread. It's off-topic and I don't know how many more ways I can explain it to you so I won't bother trying again.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Wasn't that raving rightist "libertarian" who graced us with his presence a couple of years ago also one of your fellow-countrymen?

Wassisname...onanist?

Yeah. Norway. A whole country of individual bad apples

 

[TruXta]

Wasn't that raving rightist "libertarian" who graced us with his presence a couple of years ago also one of your fellow-countrymen?

The Onarchist? Yeah.