Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[butchersapron]

I'm going to try and memorise this post cos it gets the point across so well. Do you think his effect is worse than LP's btw?

Absolutely.

 

[DotCommunist]

And Lilith.

and steve

 

[TruXta]

Considering LP has voted/favoured LibDems I'd say Owen's pull for Lab seems the greater?

 

[rekil]

Surely Owen will get a Labour job offer if they get in, special advisor or communicatons team bigwig or something. It'd be a bit daft to leave him outside. He'd be useful for going on telly and saying 'Labour can't undo all the tory damage overnight' over and over.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm going to try and memorise this post cos it gets the point across so well. Do you think his effect is worse than LP's btw?

To answer in a bit more detail than just 'absolutely':

One simple reason is that there is actual politics that you can do if you agree with him, you can join labour and put forward a motion on re-nationalisation or something and get it debated locally or whatever, or sponsor an initiative for the trades council to consider - it's a politics that offers some form of personal and collective involvement whereas LPs stuff is just this is what i did, me, not you, and i'm not going to offer you anything beyond that.

I remember when we opened the bookshop two best-sellers in those first weeks were Chav's and some LP one, the chavs one is still selling well now and no one asks about LP anymore, plus the people who bought chavs are still around, a lot of them might now be in the labour orbit, but they're still around. And i think that's because of that offer of involvement his stuff contains.

 

[cesare]

To answer in a bit more detail than just 'absolutely':

One simple reason is that there is actual politics that you can do if you agree with him, you can join labour and put forward a motion on re-nationalisation or something and get it debated locally or whatever, or sponsor an initiative for the trades council to consider - it's a politics that offers some form of personal and collective involvement whereas LPs stuff is just this is what i did, me, not you, and i'm not going to offer you anything beyond that.

I remember when we opened the bookshop two best-sellers in those first weeks were Chav's and some LP one, the chavs one is still selling well now and no one asks about LP anymore, plus the people who bought chavs are still around, a lot of them might now be in the labour orbit, but they're still around. And i think that's because of that offer of involvement his stuff contains.

So what he does (and does well) is encourage a route into current electoral politics which as we know aren't serving the working class.

 

[butchersapron]

So what he does (and does well) is encourage a route into current electoral politics which as we know aren't serving the working class.

That's it in a nutshell - and LP isn't offering a route anywhere. Key difference in impact (immediate or potential) on real world as a result.

 

[el-ahrairah]

Am I wrong to be pissed off about this kind of thing?

Not at all.

 

[el-ahrairah]

After reading a great deal of this thread it seems quite clear to me what's going on here. I'm not going to ask you to check your privilege on this one, you had much rather check your ressentiment. I know it's a classical far-right argument, but it seems to be such a precise analysis of this discussion that it would be cheap to dismiss it outright.

well done. thanks for the wiki link. us uneducated plebs would never have got what you were on about otherwise. perhaps an IP check might not go astray on this one... editor?

 

[cesare]

That's it in a nutshell - and LP isn't offering a route anywhere. Key difference in impact (immediate or potential) on real world as a result.

And so he can afford to indulge LP in these tea-drinking making up sessions, because the relatively minimal impact it has for her vanity is so much more publicity and impact for him. For example, and just as an aside.

 

[frogwoman]

So what he does (and does well) is encourage a route into current electoral politics which as we know aren't serving the working class.

These people could "start" out believing what he saysgetting involved in Labour etc and end up coming to their own conclusion (hopefully that it's bollocks, but maybe that it isn't) so in that sense owen jones could actually be doing some good couldn't he?

or am i being naive?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

These people could "start" out believing what he saysgetting involved in Labour etc and end up coming to their own conclusion (hopefully that it's bollocks, but maybe that it isn't) so in that sense owen jones could actually be doing some good couldn't he?

or am i being naive?

I was going to post something like that too... but I think it is just as likely that someone could be inspired to get involved with "look at me!" activisty type politics (or rather hipsterish activisty posing) by reading LP and then realise that is a dead end and move on to better things.

I think butchers is right in that OJ's aims are more pernicious than LP's. But where people end up will of course depend on other factors.

That is a bit wooly though...

 

[ymu]

ok. well, i think it's a lot simpler than that. but this isn't really the thread for a lengthy discussion on the matter imo.

I'd agree, if it wasn't the only thread on the boards where is is possible to discuss it.

Should I try mumsnet?

 

[cesare]

These people could "start" out believing what he saysgetting involved in Labour etc and end up coming to their own conclusion (hopefully that it's bollocks, but maybe that it isn't) so in that sense owen jones could actually be doing some good couldn't he?

or am i being naive?

People do come to their own conclusions but quite often it's through disillusionment and by then the damage (perpetuating the party machine) is done, I suppose.

 

[DotCommunist]

owens raising consciousness, but only as far as labourism

 

[Favelado]

I'd say he engages with labour, they don't engage with him - they don't have to, he's doing a great job of convincing many young people that there is no other road to change anything but through voting labour thereby helping make it actually happen, whilst the party fails to sign up to or support any of the things he gives as the reason for voting labour.

I think you'll have a more than adequate response to this but isn't Jones agitating for a left-wing alternative to Labour and actually wanting to bring about another road to change? Or did he just write one article saying that once and that's the sum total of it?

It's the latter isn't it?

 

[killer b]

I'd agree, if it wasn't the only thread on the boards where is is possible to discuss it.

Should I try mumsnet?

be my guest.

 

[ViolentPanda]

what's made up? these are your and your friends own words you twat

For an Oxbridge English grad, she doesn't do too well at discourse analysis, does she?

 

[tufty79]

Who are the British left?

this lot
sorry, just jumping back a few weeks to the discussion about the left/activists/the line between them and everyone else..

event:

"Moderation in temper is always a virtue
But moderation in principle is always a vice"
(T Paine, The Rights of Man)
and the home of the radical to meet, to plot, to drink, to commiserate the woes of work, to flirt with the potential of change has always been The Public House.
The Public House is a social event at that 'nursery of vice' Wharf Chambers for those of a leftist, beer drinking bent to gather together to partake of the revolutionary spirit. The only chairs are to sit on, no consensus decision making needed at the bar. Every corner is a speakers corner. And yes, Seabrooks crisps are available.
We are drinking for BEDROOMS. Two days before Hands Off Our Homes No Bedroom Tax Demo. this is an Opportunity for a 10 min lowdown on the bedroom tax and resistance to it so far, plus DIY banner making in the events room. Bring your own materials and paints, and literature/propaganda for the book stall.

what the staggering fuck?
a 10 minute intro to the bedroom tax. with the rest of the evening booked for getting pissed and making sure that they claim a large chunk of visibility credit on saturday.

this was a celebration of thatcher's funeral by self-identified 'workers in and for the community'

which was them and their mates. in a basement. the one waving the 'orgreave' placard has described what happened there as involving 'activists' foremost, miners after.

and they all think the sun shines out of our laurie's arse.

leeds is well pissing me off at the minute

 

[ViolentPanda]

WTF is "an attempted rightwing attempt" when it's at home? Some kind of weird fetishistic never-ending failed circle-jerk?

 

[el-ahrairah]

it's not just leeds. check out these prannies.

http://www.artangel.org.uk//projects/2013/party_for_freedom/people_vs_freedom/public_gatherings

 

[ViolentPanda]

Possibly interesting thing earlier - LPs replies to the person claiming to have been the person she talked to, were posted under the name 'fraziel' - 'fraziel' seems to appear in just about every NS article somewhere, but never actually where i can find it when i go to the article, apart from a few times in comments where they appear to be some sot of scots nationalist. Any ideas? Or is this just some journo or website technical thing?

That's a very prejudiced way of looking at ScotNats. Not all of them are sots!

 

[ViolentPanda]

to be honest with you mate if you were a class struggle anarchist (london branch) it would be all fixie bikes, ironic moustaches and skinny fit jeans. Coupled with a private school education, posh university and £30k job courtesy of your dad's company.

So, you're not at all bitter as per the events of last year, then?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do you reckon we'll get a massive increase in views on this thread like last time Laurie turned up? Be good to get a bit more traffic for the site.

Or do I need to get her to call me a racist again?

Or a misogynist. Either is fine.

 

[seventh bullet]

this lot
sorry, just jumping back a few weeks to the discussion about the left/activists/the line between them and everyone else..

event:




what the staggering fuck?
a 10 minute intro to the bedroom tax. with the rest of the evening booked for getting pissed and making sure that they claim a large chunk of visibility credit on saturday.

this was a celebration of thatcher's funeral by self-identified 'workers in and for the community'

which was them and their mates. in a basement.

and they all think the sun shines out of our laurie's arse.

leeds is well pissing me off at the minute

Students, swearing.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nah, the ones that now have the name laurie penny peviously had the name 'fraziel' but fraziel is supposed to be someone else (who co-incidentally "voted lib dem for the first and last ever time at the election" )

So basically it's all a bit Hari/Rose, then?

 

[tufty79]

Students, swearing.

nope. wrong.
Seasoned, professional activists/radical routes and worker co-op members swearing. not a sniff of student among 'em. unless you count the performance poets

 

[ViolentPanda]

double post

 

[lazythursday]

what the staggering fuck?
a 10 minute intro to the bedroom tax. with the rest of the evening booked for getting pissed and making sure that they claim a large chunk of visibility credit on saturday.

As someone who hasn't been to a political meeting in donkey's years, I'm not sure this approach is totally bad. I'd much rather go along to something that sounds sociable and where I can easily escape if necessary. If it's my cup of tea I can then get a bit more involved. And I can then go to the bedroom tax demo the next day and actually know people, rather than stand around on the edge feeling a bit of a tit while some trot shouts into a microphone.

Now I'm not saying these guys have sound politics but they've at least manage to design a political meeting that sounds like fun.

 

[seventh bullet]

nope. wrong.
Seasoned, professional activists/radical routes and worker co-op members swearing. not a sniff of student among 'em. unless you count the performance poets

I've never met a 'professional activist' before.