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Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

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In that sense it's entirely accurate for who he's talking for and to then. Something that you (well me) get off those pieces sihhi posted is just how strongly they feel that this is their country, this is their society the rest of us are just here to make up the numbers, to do the stuff that allow them to do the really important stuff. Almost like they imagine they are in a classical greek polis and they are the citizens - the only ones entitled to vote, to deliberate on public policy, to construct and participate in culture.

In the case of Bryan Appleyard, they become convinced they are the ones to make decisions because they studied diligently in Oxford. From a search done in 2003 of the phrase 'working class' in editorials and left commentators on the Independent and Guardian:


Brian Appleyard in 1999 said:
With the decline in faith in an immortal soul and the loss of faith even in the Enlightenment ideal of the moral absolute of the human agent, we turned to science to provide us with a more solid form of human assessment. Impressed by the apparent success of the results, we came to accept intelligence as the primary human faculty. And yet those results revealed deep inequalities. So, if we really believe in the centrality of intelligence, then we must really believe in fundamental human inequalities. We must really believe in our own ability to say that some people are ultimately better than others.

Gould's egalitarian response is to say science is wrong. But that compounds the problem -- not least because his apparent position is incredible. Everybody knows that science will inevitably reveal fundamental biological inequalities between people.

The real issue is whether we can rise above our science and our statistics and maintain our sense of the moral absolute of individuals as ends, not means, whose ultimate status we are not competent to judge. In this sense, Gould is absolutely right to speak of the tragedy of a life crushed by "a limit imposed from without". People are more than their intelligence, however measured, just as they are more than the speed with which they run, their attractiveness or the size of their bank balances. Remembering that, amid this cascade of research -- this talk of cognitive stratification and these earnest assessments of worldly success -- will be the most difficult task.


Brian Appleyard in 1996 said:
We are, it is routinely said, a class-ridden society. Americans sneer at our insidious, divisive rituals, the progressive left damns us for our failure to
escape from an imperial past, and the economic right plots against our class-based institutions, the better to project us into a globalised, free market culture. In fact, nobody ever says anything good about class - the system is universally agreed to be a bad thing.

But, somehow, class survives. One reason for this is our infinite capacity for hypocrisy. We practise class distinctions even as we mouth our socially
acceptable disgust. Snobbery courses through the leftish, bien pensant publishing party as surely as it does through Ascot or Henley. The wrong accent, the giveaway clothes are patronised and then avoided as rigorously in Bohemia as at Court. And the same process works in reverse - the working or under classes are just as suspicious and resentful of the middles and uppers. Something here seems to be just too ingrained, too fundamental to dismiss with a few airy phrases about social mobility and the culture of opportunity.

And this is the real point - even in contemporary Britain, class is destiny, not circumstance. Both Prescott and Prince Edward are being simple-minded. They seem to think of class as contingent, a kind of accident that can be corrected. The Prince thinks social mobility disproves the class system and Prescott thinks because he sits in a Jaguar and works in an office he has become middle class.

[...]

So we arrive at the curious cultural moment at which the latest science appears to be confirming an ancient superstition, confirming, indeed, the most local and resilient form of that superstition - the British class system. This is not a remote, intellectual observation. Genetics has already changed real people's view of the world.

After the war, in revulsion against the Nazi abuse of genetic theory, we all swung towards the view that character was formed by nurture not nature. Never again, we thought, would we make the mistake of consigning people to hell because of their natural inheritance. But now the popularisation of molecular genetics has swung us back. People are bad because they are made that way, people are upper, middle or working because it's in their genes - the rich man is back in his castle, the poor man back at the gate. Of course, geneticists themselves would not go that far, but the almost daily stories they inspire and encourage about finding the gene "for" this or that makes that kind of popular assumption inevitable.

And genetics is global so, in world terms, this could mean a new scientifically underwritten class system in which deviant genes make you either a hopeless degenerate or a suitable case for treatment. The British belief in class predestination, meanwhile, can only be sustained by the swing from nurture back to nature. The progressives, the communitarians and the anti-deference constitutional radicals are now, therefore, swimming against the tide. The layered, hierarchical society is once more in tune with the convictions of the people.

[...] All human societies seem to form themselves into some kind of class system. Hollywood and communist China are class-based as surely as White's club and, in their operations, are a good deal more savage. But the oddity of the British system is that it has retained both institutionally - in the Monarchy and the House of Lords - and psychologically the belief in class as inheritance or destiny. This belief has proved astonishingly resilient in the face of modernity and is now stronger than ever. It is, therefore, likely to be with us for some time.

This may be bad news, but it need not be. And here, at last, is something good to be said about class. If we regard ourselves as predestined to be upper, middle or working, then it only becomes a problem if you seriously want to change. But why should you? The one achievement of social mobility has been not to destroy the class system, but to remove its moral stigma. Everybody knows that working-class David Hockney is a greater Englishman than royal Prince Andrew, so what's the problem? Class persists but its moral depth has gone. It is now a set of mannerisms and rituals, of going to the pub or watching polo. Class is simply culture. Nothing, in fact, to get upset about.

Indeed, once we erase the moral stigma, class becomes something to celebrate, a precious expression of human variety that ought not to be eradicated by either illiterate egalitarianism or the globalised economy. I don't want East End pubs to become like Chelsea wine bars; I don't want Ascot to become like the White City. I want difference because loss of difference is death and, ultimately, the classless society is the dead society.
 
I seem to remember him doing a review of Michael Collins Book The Likes of Us: A Biography of the White Working Class years ago that sort of suggested that he got it. Maybe not fully or how it related to him and his life but at least partially.

edit: here it is. Hmm, not quite as i remembered.
 
In the case of Bryan Appleyard, they become convinced they are the ones to make decisions because they studied diligently in Oxford. From a search done in 2003 of the phrase 'working class' in editorials and left commentators on the Independent and Guardian...

What point are you trying to make with the 1999 and 1996 quotes?
 
I seem to remember him doing a review of Michael Collins Book The Likes of Us: A Biography of the White Working Class years ago that sort of suggested that he got it. Maybe not fully or how it related to him and his life but at least partially.

edit: here it is. Hmm, not quite as i remembered.
He quotes this GK Chesterton quote while apparently ignoring the fact that he is one of those rich shits who work to demoralise the poor. Anyway, you can see why the ideal of this GKC version of the poor would sit well with a corporativist conservative.

“We are always ready to make a saint or prophet of the educated man who goes into cottages to give a little kindly advice to the uneducated,” he wrote. But the real saints and prophets – those of the middle ages – were uneducated men “who walked into grand houses to give a little kindly advice to the educated.” The wisdom of the poor was once deployed to moralise the rich; now that of the rich is used to demoralise the poor.
 
some context to his subsequent assault on 'shell suit pensioners'.

I can't see how the 1999 quote relates (bog standard anti-science rant with possible delusions of 'philosopher kinghood' - there was a lot of it about at the time), and the 1996 one just looks like tangentially related fuckwittery (ie. he seems to be arguing that class is morally irrelevant and looks to be completely ignorant as to its material underpinnings).

Unless by 'context' you just meant confirmation of twattery. :)
 
But he's definitely Labour and was left critical of Blair, unlike Aaronovitch who was a Blair cheerleader throughout.
Blair was a philistine corporativist conservative. Apppleyard has an aesthetic appreciation of class, and feels the pain of the WC.
 
I can't see how the 1999 quote relates (bog standard anti-science rant with possible delusions of 'philosopher kinghood' - there was a lot of it about at the time), and the 1996 one just looks like tangentially related fuckwittery (ie. he seems to be arguing that class is morally irrelevant and looks to be completely ignorant as to its material underpinnings).

You have it there, 1999 is a really long piece about genetics and society, where ultimately his position is that he and others like him are able to look at humans as ends and not means - unlike the pure scientists. 1996 sees an approach saying class is an irremovable fact of human life, there's nothing anyone can do. The judgement on Residents Against Paedophiles and ear-piercers comes from a similar place - the working-class -potential 'mob' - will always be with us, they must be controlled for their own children's good (seeing humans as 'ends not means'). I dunno. You win.
 
Ye gods, I always thought their smoke reeked of camel dung and wet wool, thanks a bundle for the reminder. :mad:

I started on them when I was university. I didn't mind people snaffling tho odd one out of my B&H, but it got to the point where people took them without even asking or saying anything.

Hands stopped appearing in the corner of my eye after I switched to unfiltered Camels.
 
1996 sees an approach saying class is an irremovable fact of human life, there's nothing anyone can do.

Ah right, I figured the 1996 one was mainly setting up class as some kind of 'charming diversity' between people (having been separated from any kind of moral stigma), which somehow misses the fact that class makes life shit for a lot of people ('but they don't know anything else, dear, they're not like us').

But when he says the problem only manifests when people want to change class - I can see where you're coming from on that point.

I dunno. You win.

Do I get the toaster? :cool:
 
For the "more attention on Sunny Hundal" posters earlier:

sunnyu.jpg


A couple of months ago at Labour Conference British Humanist Association's fringe meeting at

2 Labour left MPs, 2 BHA officials I think? and Polly and Sunny.

It's called a 'No-Prayer Breakfast' and you can see the croissants, partially covered by Sunny's hand, and the black handkerchiefs/paper towels:

264311_10151231862745923_1981438210_n.jpg
 
Worse or better than the 2011 comment award show:
Who do these liberals think they are? Hundall against a background of Barclays and jaguar. What would we think of a woodcut of Thomas Paine at an event sponsored by the East India Company?
 
Who do these liberals think they are? Hundall against a background of Barclays and jaguar. What would we think of a woodcut of Thomas Paine at an event sponsored by the East India Company?

Barclays don't sell weapons to 'dictators' :mad: they just fund people who do.

Anyway that was early in 2011 when Sunny Hundal won the independent blogger award for Liberal Conspiracy.

Then by November 2011

http://thecreativediarist.com/2011/...rds-runner-up-digital-journalist-of-the-year/

student-media-awards-26.jpg


Don't want to attack the student there at all, but Sunny is half playing the role of a mini-gatekeeper for the next generation:

The night finished with drinks at the Big Chilli House in Islington. The best part of the night was getting the opportunity to speak to the judge of my category, Sunny Hundal. He gave me loads of great feedback and really encouraged me to keep on with what I’m doing.

And like LP he is considered as the spokesperson of a generation for the more 'moderate' crowd, hence him being invited to a panel of the Fabian Society:

http://www.youngfabians.org.uk/blog...ration-crisis-panel-at-the-fabian-conference/

Also note on that conference is Luciana Berger, a voice for "working-class women" in Liverpool who won the selection in 2010 by dodgy deals against the wishes of the local party.
 
A couple of months ago at Labour Conference British Humanist Association's fringe meeting at

2 Labour left MPs, 2 BHA officials I think? and Polly and Sunny.

They are Andrew Copson (BHA Chief Exec) and Naomi Phillips (Chair of Labour Humanists).
 
'celebrities have the right to a private life' but apparently working-class women don't. Without some pasty baggy-eyed smug over-entitled fuck coming along and taking the piss out of their clothes, eating habits and parenting skills.

Say what you see, say what you see.
 
'celebrities have the right to a private life' but apparently working-class women don't. Without some pasty baggy-eyed smug over-entitled fuck coming along and taking the piss out of their clothes, eating habits and parenting skills.

He's going to have a word with that now.

cs1d8961.jpg


Probable Aaronovitch response:

davidaaronovitch said:
That writing was ages ago, in order to "raise the level of debate" anyway. I am writing from a position detached reason that objectively can only assist the working class. Where I'm forced to live - in Hampstead - the local councillors are Tory. Fighting the Tory beast is important, isn't it? I work for a living trying to do that.
 
And like LP he is considered as the spokesperson of a generation for the more 'moderate' crowd, hence him being invited to a panel of the Fabian Society:

http://www.youngfabians.org.uk/blog...ration-crisis-panel-at-the-fabian-conference/

Also note on that conference is Luciana Berger, a voice for "working-class women" in Liverpool who won the selection in 2010 by dodgy deals against the wishes of the local party.

Penny got to talk to the fabian conference too. Not that one though.
 
Penny got to talk to the fabian conference too. Not that one though.

Hadn't thought of that but you are right - in early 2011 even.


4. Winning the argument: what can we learn about movement politics from the right?
What can we learn from the right’s success in campaigning and grassroots advocacy on the web, particularly in the environment, and how should the left respond?
Speakers: James Crabtree, Comment Editor, Financial Times, Jon Cruddas MP, Matthew Elliott, Chief Executive of the Taxpayers’ Alliance, Chuka Umunna MP, Tim Montgomerie, Editor of Conservative Home, Laurie Penny, The New Statesman.


2. Fairness after the cuts: How do campaigners deal with the deficit?
What strategies do poverty and welfare campaigners need to take this year and in the longer-term to sustain public support?
Speakers: Brendan Barber, TUC General Secretary, Tom Clark (the Guardian), Sunny Hundal, Liberal Conspiracy & False Economy, Deborah Mattinson, BritainThinks, Trevor Phillips, Chair of Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC).

http://www.fabians.org.uk/events/850/
In fairness to LP, being on a platform with James Crabtree, Matthew Elliott, Tim Montgomerie, Chuka and Cruddas would make me wilt too.
 
Also note on that conference is Luciana Berger, a voice for "working-class women" in Liverpool who won the selection in 2010 by dodgy deals against the wishes of the local party.
She used to be in my CLP - from the very poshest part of the borough obviously.
 
Laurie is on R4 again tomorrow talking about Birchill. Turn your bass up and put the dogs in another room.
 
2. Fairness after the cuts: How do campaigners deal with the deficit?
What strategies do poverty and welfare campaigners need to take this year and in the longer-term to sustain public support?
Speakers: Brendan Barber, TUC General Secretary, Tom Clark (the Guardian), Sunny Hundal, Liberal Conspiracy & False Economy, Deborah Mattinson, BritainThinks, Trevor Phillips, Chair of Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC).
.

interesting that none of those people are actually welfare campaigners or claimants
 
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