Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[ymu]

Ok...and I'm not disagreeing. So how do you feel about people making the point that some female writers...who are, as you say subjected to appalling abuse...nevertheless employ the fact of this abuse to disparage their critics when there is no misogyny in play so much as an awkward point they don't want to deal with?..because once you see the the Internet as teeming with male sociopaths you start to posit motivations behind justified critiques which simply aren't there. And most posters aren't fucked up misogynists...and most of what LP writes is completely challengeable on rational grounds but is dismissed on the basis that the person making the challenge has an ulterior degenerate motive.

Your dictum makes the above point hard to convey and plays into the hands of those who would use the existence of racism and misogyny as a coverall to opt out of ever defending or substantiating a contentious point...not that you're wrong.

I think you can criticise the mode of action without denying reality or trivialising the impact it has.

And I think you have to acknowledge that being repeatedly abused by misogynists might make it hard to distinguish it from genuine criticism, if that criticism is robustly or poorly worded, or bundled in with a load of genuinely dodgy comments (eg this thread).

I do think she chucks around identity-based accusations far too easily (eg spineygate as well as this latest spat), and devalues the accusation in the process. But you have to deal with that in exactly the same way as the bigoted comments she's complaining about - delete them (ie ignore) or have the patience to respond without sinking to the same level.

This is why identity politics is such a headfuck. It devalues precisely what it is supposed to stand for.

 

[ymu]

Already addressed way back in the thread. Though she did choose to ignore this when it was pointed out to her. She has far more interest in yakking with the scum than she has in answering questions here.

I was re-addressing it lest we stray anew.

Agree entirely that she's using it to avoid the hard questions.

 

[Firky]

Is she in the NUJ now?

Even if she said she was would you believe her?

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

Even if she said she was would you believe her?

No...but it'd probably be the misogyny talking

 

[el-ahrairah]

I fucking hate those movies. Ten months I did a paper round before realising that I'd been lied to and British suburbia wasn't inhabited by bored housewives ready to rip the clothes off any young man that came calling

when i had my paper-round i was genuinely invited inside by a middle-aged woman in a see-through neglige when i went knocking to ask for the paper bill. i scarpered. i was 12 and unprepared for that sort of thing.

 

[Firky]

neglige, that's something you never see these days. it's all onsies and fucking panda hoodies.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

neglige, that's something you never see these days. it's all onsies and fucking panda hoodies.

cute though

when i had my paper-round i was genuinely invited inside by a middle-aged woman in a see-through neglige when i went knocking to ask for the paper bill. i scarpered. i was 12 and unprepared for that sort of thing.

At 12 I would certainly have ventured inside to see what happened.

 

[Firky]

Make their toes curl by shagging them in a onsie.

 

[cesare]

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

ETA: two facepalms simultaneously - that's more facepalm than a double Picard

 

[Athos]

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

 

[cesare]

 

[el-ahrairah]

At 12 I would certainly have ventured inside to see what happened.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Is that Laurie and Nick?

 

[Favelado]

neglige, that's something you never see these days. it's all onsies and fucking panda hoodies.

At Christmas I was back home. My grandad was giving me a lift somewhere. The streets were empty and it was hammering it down with rain. Not a soul to be seen. Then out of nowhere a 14 year old lad made his way across the road in front of us dressed in a tiger onsie and wellies. The onsie had ears and a tail and everything. It was the full Tigger. The kid had a face like a smacked arse however. The contrast between his miserable countenance and the frivolity of his get-up, combined with his nonchalence at marching around dressed as a jungle animal was a bit disturbing.

It was the first time I had seen a onsie too. It's the best evidence of the UK being in cultural decline since someone at work told me that they'd started a TV channel in Britain called Dave and I refused to believe them.

This is on topic right?

 

[Firky]

Epic facepalming 1


You guys are the greatest

 

[Firky]

Is that Laurie and Nick?

There's a special circle in hell just for you

 

[Steel Icarus]

Yep.


I have a feeling I was - and I'm using the word sarcastically here, having just made it up - worksplained to the other day. Some student said "no-one likes working for their dinner" and "any truly free person would not want to work". I said I fucking loved working in a factory, cos I did, often.

No reply, of course.

Update:

I did get a reply.

"No one wants to 7 am to do Labour for someone else for the privilege of eating"

"I did. I liked working hard all week for money to spend."

"What did you lika about working hard all week for money to spend?"

"Working with people, collectively. Sense of jobs well-done. Tasks as ends in themselves. That and money to blow on the weekend and buy nice stuff for tea"

"None of these things require wage labour to exist. Wage labour probably makes them harder. Did you actually enjoy the part where you had to sell your labour or run out of money?"

Etc. Theory, theory, theory. And there's the disconnect. Lads I worked with in factories didn't give a fuck about the concept of selling your labour, who owns the means of production, identity politics, kyriarchy, othering, man/white/left/black/worksplaining. Thinking that something was a bit rotten they they put a load of hours in getting mucky for £250 a week while the boss drove a Morgan didn't stop us all oohing and aahing over the thing in the factory car park. Having a decent wedge in your pocket on a Friday to go down the boozer with and up the football Saturday didn't stop anyone moaning about the tax paid out of our wages nor did it stop us being happy with how it helped. And knowing the factory QA who did fuck-all earned twice as much as most of us didn't stop us being proud, sometimes, of the job(s) we did. It's all very well speaking in terms of pure theory about what people should feel about their labour being exploited but it's not just as simple as reading out of a textbook, is it?

Sorry if I've not made myself clear, like; I never went to university and I only read fiction and biographies and that.

 

[rekil]

R4's Womens Hour at 10am if anyone can be bothered. It will stink.

What is the best way for women to engage in the political process? March and shout loudly or lobby and persuade for change? Journalist Laurie Penny and Charlotte Vere, founder of Women On, a campaign group for women in the economy, join us to discuss.

 

[Firky]

R4's Womens Hour at 10am if anyone can be bothered. It will stink.

Is that today (tuesday)?

Actually am not bothered, I have better things to be doing than listening to that spoilt brat.

(will listen to it anyway as I know waht I am like)

 

[rekil]

Is that today (tuesday)?

Yes. I do hope the suffragettes get a mention.

 

[Firky]

Yes. I do hope the suffragettes get a mention.

Emily Davison was from my home town, I have more in common with her than LP! But they both went to Oxford so maybe not.

 

[mrs quoad]

She's on R4 / Women's Hour at this very second...

 

[BigTom]

So I've been invited to the @politicsinbrum 2nd birthday party All the local twitterati will be there - @politicalhackUK - a labour councillor - @brumpolitics - an a level politics teacher and (possibly ex) lib dem - bloggers from The Chamberlain Files and more! Soon I'll be the "voice of the left" in the midlands.. or maybe the "voice of youth", I'm only 33 you know!

I'm sure she sent this DM to everyone she followed, when I saw it I shuddered a bit thinking of this thread and the wider media commentariat etc. and how this is also reflected in some way at a local level. I won't be attending, I expect it'll be as bad as art exhibition openings but without some art to enjoy.

 

[brogdale]

She's on R4 / Women's Hour at this very second...

Liberal 'feminist' argues with Socialist feminist.
Only one winner there!

 

[smokedout]

maybe it'll be like when they put her up against louise mensch on newsnight to discuss feminism in the tory party, which should have been a rout. instead they appeared to discover they had lots in common and got on spiffingly.

 

[Greebo]

Liberal 'feminist' argues with Socialist feminist.
Only one winner there!

I would have listened properly but was too busy having breakfast and getting some of the housework out of the way.

 

[el-ahrairah]

Is that Laurie and Nick?

Metaphorically speaking!

 

[el-ahrairah]

maybe it'll be like when they put her up against louise mensch on newsnight to discuss feminism in the tory party, which should have been a rout. instead they appeared to discover they had lots in common and got on spiffingly.

Class always sides together in the end. Their interests are too similar.