Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[phildwyer]

Which black people are you on about or do they all look the same to you?

Any black people at all.

I'll try again.

A. Do you think it is good for black people to celebrate black culture?

B. Do you think it is good for white people to celebrate white culture?

See, if anyone asks me those questions, I have no problem responding. I think it is very good for black people to celebrate black culture. And I think it is very bad for white people to celebrate white culture.

Not only that, I consider the answers to those questions to be shibboleths. Yes, shibboleths. That is why I would like you and Spiney to answer them, please.

 

[phildwyer]

I don't think white people should celebrate being white.

That's all we wanted, thank you.

 

[SpineyNorman]

It (going easy on someone less experienced) can and does sometimes bleed into a form of paternalism, though, especially when "practiced" at a collective level. I can recall a bit of this happening when "Respect" first started, although that was also based on not alienating the Trots' new allies.
I also have much personal experience of individuals saying to me "I don't want to receive special treatment. I just want to be treated equally". Unfortunately, if "allowance-making" is a standard interactional strategy, then it institutionalises a form of "special treatment" that then sets a precedent for further "special treatment", and becomes a stick for some elements of the polity to beat other elements over the head with.

I was meaning more that I don't swear and shout at them like I might with others - when someone's not spoken before and someone comes back at them in an aggressive way it can put them off completely. But I wouldn't disrespect them by going easy on their arguments and I certainly wouldn't go easy on you just cos you're a disabled person

 

[love detective]

has she been on the blower yet spiney?

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's all we wanted, thank you.

The royal "we" again, phil?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I was meaning more that I don't swear and shout at them like I might with others - when someone's not spoken before and someone comes back at them in an aggressive way it can put them off completely. But I wouldn't disrespect them by going easy on their arguments and I certainly wouldn't go easy on you just cos you're a disabled person

That's okay. I wouldn't go easy on you just because you're a northerner.

 

[SpineyNorman]

That's all we wanted, thank you.

Are you using the royal we now sir?

 

[SpineyNorman]

That's okay. I wouldn't go easy on you just because you're a northerner.

 

[SpineyNorman]

has she been on the blower yet spiney?

Nope. My bet is either no phone call or a call right in the middle of the fucking match.

 

[fogbat]

It's also interesting to see how Laurie Penny's Wikipedia entry is being censored of any criticism, on the grounds that her own Twitter feed is not objective. Yet most of the article consists of links to her own blog.

*cough*Hari*cough*

 

[phildwyer]

Good job nobody has said that then isn't it you disingenuous fool? Who said anything about them celebrating being British?

As I say, I'm not sure what Thurrock was actually saying. But here:

''When economic times are tough and their dreams can't be realised, the tendency to encourage immigrants to celebrate what they are rather than what they could have become is patronising to them, an admission of defeat that they can't progress and worst of all dangerously divisive.''

The reference to ''what they could have become'' is the one I found confusing. What could it mean, in this context, other than ''British'' or ''assimilated'' or just possibly ''rich?'' I find it reprehensible to suggest that any of these are worth celebrating.

And I'd say that it's always better to organize along class rather then ethnic lines. What say you sir?

I agree.

But it is important to remember what many here seem to be forgetting in their (not entirely unwarranted) frenzy of class hatred: The logical contradiction is not between bourgeoisie and proletariat, but between capital and labor. To concentrate obsessively on class, as many here do, is to risk losing sight of that vital point. All that can come of an exclusively class based analysis is sans-cullotisme enrage of the kind that we now see before us.

 

[SpineyNorman]

As I say, I'm not sure what Thurrock was actually saying. But here:

''When economic times are tough and their dreams can't be realised, the tendency to encourage immigrants to celebrate what they are rather than what they could have become is patronising to them, an admission of defeat that they can't progress and worst of all dangerously divisive.''

The reference to ''what they could have become'' is the one I found confusing. What could it mean, in this context, other than ''British'' or ''assimilated'' or just possibly ''rich?'' I find it reprehensible to suggest that any of these are worth celebrating.

What they are is in often poor, working class victims of prejudice. What they could become is equal members of a just social order. Who said anything about British, assimilated, rich or any of those things?

 

[equationgirl]

But it is important to remember what many here seem to be forgetting in their (not entirely unwarranted) frenzy of class hatred: The logical contradiction is not between bourgeoisie and proletariat, but between capital and labor. To concentrate obsessively on class, as many here do, is to risk losing sight of that vital point. All that can come of an exclusively class based analysis is sans-cullotisme enrage of the kind that we now see before us.

Rage without pants, phil?

 

[SpineyNorman]

But it is important to remember what many here seem to be forgetting in their (not entirely unwarranted) frenzy of class hatred: The logical contradiction is not between bourgeoisie and proletariat, but between capital and labor. To concentrate obsessively on class, as many here do, is to risk losing sight of that vital point. All that can come of an exclusively class based analysis is sans-cullotisme enrage of the kind that we now see before us.

You don't even understand the concepts you're talking about here though phil. And since it's not us that brought up the issue of privilege that seems a little unfair. The problem with privilege theory and identity politics is that it individualizes the issues in precisely the way you claim to oppose.

 

[cesare]

I'll just put my head above the parapet again to remark that I'm not particularly averse to a spot of sans-cullotisme enrage.

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/rschwart/hist255/la/sans-culottes.html

 

[phildwyer]

Rage without pants, phil?

Actually what we are witnessing here is little more than Pere Duchesnisme.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I'll just put my head above the arapet again to remark that I'm not particularly averse to a spot of sans-cullotisme enrage.

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/rschwart/hist255/la/sans-culottes.html

...anything to do with the origin of the phrase 'all mouth and no trousers'?

 

[SpineyNorman]

If it can only be expressed in Latin it's not proper proletarian rage

Get to fuck with your public school rage!

 

[The39thStep]

I'll leave Phil to spend the day telling black people ( any will do apparently)how he supports them celebrating their culture ( reminds me of that Play for Today when some village invited a cricket team from Brixton to play them to celebrate third world day) Meanwhile I am off down the pub to watch some football and to chat to normal people. ( prob be hideously white or if not probably white on the inside)

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I'm not sure if I know what "white culture" is.

I had falafel for lunch though.

And I'm off to see some mates play reggae later. I think some of them will be white and some of them will be black.

 

[phildwyer]

What they are is in often poor, working class victims of prejudice. What they could become is equal members of a just social order. Who said anything about British, assimilated, rich or any of those things?

Pish, that's not what the article suggests at all. It suggests that there is something wrong with, as it might be, a Jamaican immigrant to England celebrating the culture of Jamaica.

That much is clear. Not quite so clear is what the article recommends celebrating instead. I don't want to think it means ''Britishness,'' but I'm afraid that seems more plausible than your suggestion that it means ''members of a just social order.'' The context just doesn't support that reading.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Pish, that's not what the article suggests at all. It suggests that there is something wrong with, as it might be, a Jamaican immigrant to England celebrating the culture of Jamaica.

That much is clear. Not quite so clear is what the article recommends celebrating instead. I don't want to think it means ''Britishness,'' but I'm afraid that seems more plausible than your suggestion that it means ''members of a just social order.'' The context just doesn't support that reading.

I think you're putting words in the author's mouth there phil. Didn't you once very nearly get into trouble for misrepresenting the IWCA?

 

[frogwoman]

If it can only be expressed in Latin it's not proper proletarian rage

Get to fuck with your public school rage!

Did she ring you in the end spiney?

 

[cesare]

...anything to do with the origin of the phrase 'all mouth and no trousers'?

Dunno.

 

[phildwyer]

You don't even understand the concepts you're talking about here though phil. And since it's not us that brought up the issue of privilege that seems a little unfair.

Who is this ''us'' of which you speak?

The problem with privilege theory and identity politics is that it individualizes the issues

That is why I have never advocated either of them.

 

[FreddyB]

Some cultural ideas, practices and traditions are shit. A person's culture is not some inherent thing they carry around with them until the day they die.

Edit: That was supposed to be a reply to phildwyer

 

[SpineyNorman]

Who is this ''us'' of which you speak?

The people on this thread. The people you're trolling.

That is why I have never advocated either of them.

Why, then, are you using their logic in your arguments?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Did she ring you in the end spiney?

Not yet but I don't want to be unfair - she's explained that it's very early over there and asked if I'm free in 10 minutes - I've asked if she's free after 5 so I can listen to the match and I await her reply.

 

[equationgirl]

Not yet but I don't want to be unfair - she's explained that it's very early over there and asked if I'm free in 10 minutes - I've asked if she's free after 5 so I can listen to the match and I await her reply.

Very early where?

 

[phildwyer]

Meanwhile I am off down the pub to watch some football and to chat to normal people. ( prob be hideously white or if not probably white on the inside)

Funnily enough, the ''normal people'' in my local aren't white. Each to his own though eh?