Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[phildwyer]

Impossible to agree/disagree seeing as though myself, and many others don't live, identify ourselves and the interact with the world around us solely in terms of Black people' and 'White people' or 'good' and 'bad'. Those polarisations are part of 'a' problem IMO.

You and I both know that 'race' is a myth. But the division of society along spurious racial lines is a historical and social fact. There is no point pretending it does not exist, and there is even less point pretending that there are no consequences to falling into one racial category or another.

That is why it is reprehensible to suggest that white people are somehow being oppressed because they are not being allowed to 'celebrate their culture.' And that is why it is reprehensible to suggest that immigrants should celebrate being British rather than their ethnic origins.

If indeed the article was suggesting such things. It isn't clear enough to say for sure.

 

[Athos]

Also, this isn't just a question of whether or not Laurie's identity politics approach undermines a class based movement.

Even if we accept her position that a focus on the privilege associated with particular identities is central to class struggle, there's still the question of her hypocrisy and self-interest in focussing on some identities and privileges (e.g. gender and sexuality) and failing to recognise her own privilege (e.g. private school, oxbridge, media contacts etc) which is quite obviously more pertinent to class struggle.

 

[The39thStep]

Just to make my own position clear:

I think it's good for black people to celebrate being black.

But I think it's bad for white people to celebrate being white.

Is there anyone here who would disagree with that?

I'll explain why I hold my position if I need to. But I'm assuming (or at least hoping) that I don't need to.

You have just explained entirely why the far right do well compared to he liberal left

 

[phildwyer]

bingo - and as a result the working class have quite rightly stopped listening to the left

And started listening to... who, exactly?

 

[ViolentPanda]

To be honest I'd never heard of her until this thread popped up and I can't pretend to have read this thread either. Anyway, I found one of her pieces and it was about disability and I can truly say if I have come across her in a situation where I have a drink in my hand, I'm going to do an Anna Ford.

With Penny playing the Aitken role.

 

[phildwyer]

You have just explained entirely why the far right do well compared to he liberal left

First of all, they don't.

Second, how have I explained any such thing?

Do you think it would be alright for white people to celebrate being white? Is that the kind of thing you'd like to see happening?

Or do you think that British people are somehow being prevented from celebrating their Britishness? Is that a gaping hole in our cultural fabric as far as you're concerned?

Or what?

 

[frogwoman]

not this shit again

 

[cesare]

You have just explained entirely why the far right do well compared to he liberal left

Are you saying that the BNP/EDL (for examples) are the far right?

 

[SpineyNorman]

I'm saying it's reprehensible to suggest that immigrants should not celebrate their own ethnicity but should rather celebrate being (or becoming, or the possibility of becoming) British. Reprehensible at best.

Good job nobody has said that then isn't it you disingenuous fool? Who said anything about them celebrating being British? And I'd say that it's always better to organize along class rather then ethnic lines. What say you sir?

I don't care if people want to celebrate any kind of identity - that's their right. I do have a problem when the state gets involved and appoints people to be spokespersons of that identity, defining what that identity should be etc. And I have a problem when self-styled lefties present this as some kind of progressive challenge to the system.

 

[SpineyNorman]

This is a serious thread phil, I'd be grateful if you took your silliness elsewhere.

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

This has turned into quite an informative discussion. But it should just stop because it's heading for the inexorable conclusion that unless you're middle-class and a self-identifying progressive, acknowledged as such by others of the same ilk, then in any wider public sphere you're always gonna be suspect; potentially misogynistic, racist, homophobic, whatever. This is because the 'wider public sphere' is under the complete domination of middle class relativist progressives, since this is the official ideology of global capitalism.

Continuing to engage with the likes of Dave & Co ltd is basically a case of looking for the continual approval of the self-appointed arbiters of ideological purity. Apart from anything else, you're walking through a minefield, blindfolded. At any fuckin moment, the news will wing its way in from the ginger cunt, from a chaise longue in some plush 'anarchist' Manhattan duplex that you can't say X, Y or Z this week and if you do, you're a racist or a phallocentric Neanderthal rape condoner. Bingo...game over...Oxbridge 'wins' another debate

 

[love detective]

Also, this isn't just a question of whether or not Laurie's identity politics approach undermines a class based movement.

Even if we accept her position that a focus on the privilege associated with particular identities is central to class struggle, there's still the question of her hypocrisy and self-interest in focussing on some identities and privileges (e.g. gender and sexuality) and failing to recognise her own privilege (e.g. private school, oxbridge, media contacts etc) which are quite obviously more pertinent to class struggle.

She seems to justify this (to herself) by not seeing privilege per se as the problem that needs to be rooted out, fought against and destroyed

the logical conclusion of her twisted usage of 'unexamined privilege' implicitly separates out privilege into 'good' and 'bad' types (the later being the 'unexamined' which her critics from the left are accused of having), and because she's written a vacuous puff piece about 'checking' and 'examining' her own privilege, this then removes her privilege from being a problem and leaves her free to crusade against the real problem, this so called unexamined privilege

the whole thing is totally idealist and almost becomes an academic exercise, it's not about changing material conditions of privilege but about examining things laboratory style, not in order to change them, but in order to justify them whilst condemning others for imaginary privileges which relatively speaking do not exist

 

[phildwyer]

not this shit again

What do you mean 'again?'

This article, or response, or whatever it is, has only just been linked to from this thread. The one which announces:

''... a point that was made quite often to me on the doorstep by white working class men and women was why was it when every other culture was encouraged to celebrate their identity, when they wanted to celebrate their English / British identity, they were dismissed as racist. For the record, the majority of these people had no problem with other cultures celebrating their identity, all they wanted was a chance to celebrate their own.''

And it's the same article that seems to discourage immigrants from celebrating their ethnicity, suggesting instead that they should celebrate being British. Or seeming so to suggest at least.

One does not have to be Laurie Penny to find such suggestions reprehensible.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Here's a hint: those other columnists do not distort events, make up quotes, 'fake interviews' and blame it on unnamed subs.

One thing the second part of your quote from La Pennionara indicates is that Laura sees inhabiting her "othered" identity - non hetero/bi; female; activist - as significantly important in "validating" and legitimating her various positions, rather than the stories themselves doing so.

 

[DotCommunist]

one does not simply have to be laurrie penny

 

[Blagsta]

It's also interesting to see how Laurie Penny's Wikipedia entry is being censored of any criticism, on the grounds that her own Twitter feed is not objective. Yet most of the article consists of links to her own blog.

 

[Athos]

She seems to justify this (to herself) by not seeing privilege per se as the problem that needs to be rooted out, fought against and destroyed

the logical conclusion of her twisted usage of 'unexamined privilege' implicitly separates out privilege into 'good' and 'bad' types (the later being the 'unexamined' which her critics from the left are accused of having), and because she's written a vacuous puff piece about 'checking' and 'examining' her own privilege, this then removes her privilege from being a problem and leaves her free to crusade against the real problem, this so called unexamined privilege

the whole thing is totally idealist and almost becomes an academic exercise, it's not about changing material conditions of privilege but about examining things laboratory style, not in order to change them but in order to justify them whilst condemning others for imaginary privileges which relatively speaking do not exist

Yeah. As if 'examining' privilege means that it ceases to exist!

 

[SpineyNorman]

You and I both know that 'race' is a myth. But the division of society along spurious racial lines is a historical and social fact. There is no point pretending it does not exist, and there is even less point pretending that there are no consequences to falling into one racial category or another.

That is why it is reprehensible to suggest that white people are somehow being oppressed because they are not being allowed to 'celebrate their culture.' And that is why it is reprehensible to suggest that immigrants should celebrate being British rather than their ethnic origins.

If indeed the article was suggesting such things. It isn't clear enough to say for sure.

No I doesn't you silly sod. It says that there is a perception that this is the case. And, just like the fiction of race, this perception becomes a social fact too.

And stop being such a coward - if you've got something you want to say then say it. Give over with the insinuations.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Here it is, the tweet I was talking about. In fact it's worse than I remembered - she's encouraging precisely the kind of assimilation I was talking about a couple of posts ago. She's not saying the structures need to be changed - rather that members of minority groups should be represented at the top ('promoted').

"Back in the day" that was known as "tokenism", and those that practiced it were universally derided by the left and the right.
In most instances I can recall, it generally appeared to further "other" already-othered individuals.

 

[chilango]

She's well and truly nailed her colours up now. Dividing line drawn and understood *shrug*

This.

 

[The39thStep]

First of all, they don't.

Second, how have I explained any such thing?

Do you think it would be alright for white people to celebrate being white? Is that the kind of thing you'd like to see happening?

Or do you think that British people are somehow being prevented from celebrating their Britishness? Is that a gaping hole in our cultural fabric as far as you're concerned?

Or what?

You not even arguing against the content of he article but you have managed to entirely polarise the issue on ethnicity not culture.
Try what you said on anyone say in the queue at the supermarket, butchers or in a pub.

I think it's good for black people to celebrate being black.

But I think it's bad for white people to celebrate being white.

White bad/black good is what springs to mind.

 

[love detective]

Yeah. As if 'examining' privilege means that it ceases to exist!

It does seem to be the logical conclusion of her position, or perhaps it would be fairer to say that she seems to take the wholly idealist view that examining it is enough to negate the negative effects of it, so that privilege itself still exists but purely as a result of looking at it through a microscope it is turned into good privilege which can then be used for progressive and 'good' ends - she's said in the past that the fact that she comes from a privileged background helps to make her a better activist (better than all the rest!)

so what 'we' need is not the end of privilege in society but actually more of it, just a different kind, a good kind - her kind

 

[phildwyer]

No I doesn't you silly sod. It says that there is a perception that this is the case. And, just like the fiction of race, this perception becomes a social fact too.

A perception that what is the case? That white people are being oppressed because they're not allowed to celebrate being white?

And this perception leads to white people not being allowed to celebrate being white in fact?

Is that what you're saying? If not, please clarify.

Or try this instead. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I think it might help people see where you're coming from if you could answer these two simple questions.

A. Do you think white people should celebrate being white?

B. Do you think black people should celebrate being black?

Your responses to these two simple questions will tell us all we need to know. Not just Spiney, anyone.

 

[The39thStep]

Are you saying that the BNP/EDL (for examples) are the far right?

They would be part of it along with UKIP and others. I don't buy the notion of black culture or white culture but even if I accepted that there was Phil is arguing for supporting one against another.Its not only divisive but a gift to those who wish to divide and rule( which of course is exactly the mirror image of Phils position)

 

[Firky]

This thread has started to turn really interesting again. I am working my way through that essay Idris mentioned.

 

[phildwyer]

You not even arguing against the content of he article but you have managed to entirely polarise the issue on ethnicity not culture.

How have I done that?

Try what you said on anyone say in the queue at the supermarket, butchers or in a pub.

Why? How do you think people in such venues might respond?

White bad/black good is what springs to mind.

And you disagree with that, do you? You believe that white people should celebrate white history and white culture, just as black people celebrate black hıstory and culture? Do you?

DO YOU? Is that REALLY what you believe? IS IT?

 

[sihhi]

bingo - and as a result the working class have quite rightly stopped listening to the left

This is a key point when someone like Kenan Malik is wheeled out as a suitable spokesman for working-class ethnic minorities.

...but yes stopped listening because the left aren't listening...

I've felt, in even situations with working-class origin people in the majority, leftist or campaign meetings feel like 'work when a manager gets talking' at best or 'student seminar' at worst with people making asides at how boring it all is, telling someone new as a joke 'if you feel like jumping out the window, you can leave if you want to'... never saw that person again. (Reverse is smother with kindness/attention/pity... oh-my-god it's a working-class person)
Me, I always stick out at anything to do with anything environmental, and these are all things with as local a focus as possible, I end up saying something like 'concentrating first on how to stop working-class consumption is stupid'... you're like an unwanted diversion. So I don't bother anymore. Ditto stuff like Up-The-Anti - I would try to avoid going and would never invite any other friend along.

In the very worst circumstances - not very often, granted - I've been rebuked for using the wrong word. Once by someone older (a man) not to use 'immigrant' and 'immigrant people', then by someone younger (a woman, involved in the Occupy City of London camp) after a joint meeting, just chatting, not to use the term 'Third World'.
I can't begin to imagine how hard it must be for working-class people who have experience of middle-class people only as annoying busybodies (schoolteachers, housing officers, social workers, managers) to put up with the left. Not to mention how, in struggle, working-class people will often be the ones facing the eye of the storm, whilst the middle-class - by virtue of specialised skills - law, academic hobbies, journalism etc - or family riches will often escape the worst.

 

[The39thStep]

How have I done that?



Why? How do you think people in such venues might respond?



And you disagree with that, do you? You believe that white people should celebrate white history and white culture, just as black people celebrate black hıstory and culture? Do you?

DO YOU? Is that REALLY what you believe? IS IT?

Which black people are you on about or do they all look the same to you?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think I get what you mean - like sometimes when I'm in meetings with younger, less confident people when I disgree with them I don't necessarily respond as 'robustly' as I would with someone of my own age and experience. But that's just not being a dick really isn't it? I don't think you need a theory to back it up.

It (going easy on someone less experienced) can and does sometimes bleed into a form of paternalism, though, especially when "practiced" at a collective level. I can recall a bit of this happening when "Respect" first started, although that was also based on not alienating the Trots' new allies.
I also have much personal experience of individuals saying to me "I don't want to receive special treatment. I just want to be treated equally". Unfortunately, if "allowance-making" is a standard interactional strategy, then it institutionalises a form of "special treatment" that then sets a precedent for further "special treatment", and becomes a stick for some elements of the polity to beat other elements over the head with.

 

[SpineyNorman]

A perception that what is the case? That white people are being oppressed because they're not allowed to celebrate being white?

And this perception leads to white people not being allowed to celebrate being white in fact?

Is that what you're saying? If not, please clarify.

Or try this instead. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I think it might help people see where you're coming from if you could answer these two simple questions.

A. Do you think white people should celebrate being white?

B. Do you think black people should celebrate being black?

Your responses to these two simple questions will tell us all we need to know. Not just Spiney, anyone.

Well if we're straying into dwyer idealist land I'd say that I'd rather people celebrated who they were rather than what they were.

Back in the real world, I don't think white people should celebrate being white. And in order to answer the question of whether people should celebrate being black that would depend on what you mean by 'being black' really. If by 'celebrating being black' you mean they should celebrate, say, struggles against racist oppression then yes, of course.

But if by celebrating being black you mean they should celebrate when a black person becomes a CEO, even though it makes fuck all difference to ordinary blacks, and in fact merely reinforces the system that shits all over black people from a great height, then I'm not sure that is something to be celebrated.

The thing is phil, I agree that these perceptions are wrong and unjustified. But they exist and they have a political impact. And you define your response politically too.

I'm concerned about overcoming all forms of prejudice. And the most effective way to do that, in my view, is to get working class people of all ethnicities, cultures, sexualities, genders, etc fighting together on the things that affect all of us. When this happens those prejudices are overcome and barriers are broken down. So the question then becomes how best to encourage this. And I'd say a political system that encourages people to fight for resources along ethnic etc lines isn't going to help at all.

I've already been accused of racism by one over-privileged twat phil. You can get to fuck if you think I'm going to let another Oxbridge wanker do it too. Especially as I've helped raise 4 mixed race kids and seen real racism up close and personal. It's not a game, it's not about proving who's the purest and cleverest. These are real issues with real consequences and frankly you attitude towards it all makes me sick. You're just another fucking tourist.