Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[redsquirrel]

To be honest, I've not paid much attention to the thread until lauriepenny turned up herself. I don't like the idea of a whole load of people ganging up on anyone. It just makes me feel very uncomfortable. I know that not everyone here is acting in a bad way, but the aggregate effect is pretty nasty even if not intended.

But that's a daft complaint to make at this point.
Even if it was true about the thread in general (and its not IMO) it's clearly not true about the last 10 or so pages which haven't been about LP but about identity politics and privilege theory.

 

[SpineyNorman]

To be honest, I've not paid much attention to the thread until lauriepenny turned up herself. I don't like the idea of a whole load of people ganging up on anyone. It just makes me feel very uncomfortable. I know that not everyone here is acting in a bad way, but the aggregate effect is pretty nasty even if not intended.

That's not really what happened though to be fair is it?

 

[Blagsta]

If this lot stay in the SWP and manage to get anywhere near the leadership it'll be a fucking nightmare. And they have dabbled in identity politics from time to time - look at Respect.

One of the local student swappies recently left, citing an all pervasive culture of brocialism as his reason for leaving, but has since returned. Now I have many, many criticisms of the SWP but how anyone can claim they're chauvinists of any kind is beyond me.

What's wrong with broccoli? One of my favourite vegetables!

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

But that's a daft complaint to make at this point.
Even if it was true about the thread in general (and its not IMO) it's clearly not true about the last 10 or so pages which haven't been about LP but about identity politics and privilege theory.

Even the fact the thread exists at this point, knowing that it is directed at one person alone makes it seem bullying and unnecessary.

 

[frogwoman]

It's not though.

 

[sleaterkinney]

That's not really what happened though to be fair is it?

It was, along digging up her real name and background. That was stalkery and weird. Do you think that kind of behavior will make her change her opinions or what?

 

[Firky]

Norman did not dig up her real name.

Even the fact the thread exists at this point, knowing that it is directed at one person alone makes it seem bullying and unnecessary.

Are you saying because of this thread, we can't have nice things like a revolution?

 

[Fedayn]

It was, along digging up her real name and background. That was stalkery and weird. Do you think that kind of behavior will make her change her opinions or what?

You must think all journalists are stalkery and weird then....

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I'm just putting myself in the shoes of the person it's directed at. I mean for fucks sake, its's over 300 pages about an individual who writes a blog. Not even Jimmy Saville got this.

 

[redsquirrel]

Even the fact the thread exists at this point, knowing that it is directed at one person alone makes it seem bullying and unnecessary.

Like LP you haven't actually read it have you, otherwise you'd know that it isn't and wasn't directed at one person.

 

[killer b]

it isn't directed at her anyway - it's about her (and others of her ilk).

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Like LP you haven't actually read it have you, otherwise you'd know that it isn't and wasn't directed at one person.

Of course I haven't read the whole thing; I've got War and Peace, and the yellow pages to get through first. I don't need to read it all to know that it's a boil on the arse of these forums.

 

[tufty79]

its's over 300 pages about an individual who writes a blog..

er..

 

[Belushi]

Of course I haven't read the whole thing; I've got War and Peace, and the yellow pages to get through first. I don't need to read it all to know that it's a boil on the arse of these forums.

So you havent read it but you know what it's about?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

So you havent read it but you know what it's about?

Yes.

 

[redsquirrel]

Of course I haven't read the whole thing; I've got War and Peace, and the yellow pages to get through first. I don't need to read it all to know that it's a boil on the arse of these forums.

Well fuck off then and stop trying to claim something you nothing about is something that it isn't

 

[SpineyNorman]

Even the fact the thread exists at this point, knowing that it is directed at one person alone makes it seem bullying and unnecessary.

Do you react to the Thatcher/Douglas Murray/insert Tory here threads in the same way? The thing is, I bet if you went through it and sorted out the posts that are actually about LP there might be 30 pages or so. The rest is either arguments about going for a poo, in jokes and, once those important questions are out of the way, discussions of the way privilege is transmitted and the ways in which this is reflected in the content produced by 'radical' mainstream journos.

Of course something that happened shortly after she arrived forced me to pay her a little bit more attention. And I guess that if you can call this thread bullying then using your position at the upper end of a power structure, in the case the media - using a privileged media platform to call two committed antiracists racist and then ensure that they had no right to reply - might also be bullying.

 

[chilango]

It was, along digging up her real name and background. That was stalkery and weird. Do you think that kind of behavior will make her change her opinions or what?

It's not meant to change her opinions. It's not even about her opinions. They are largely irrelevant to the point. Her background is central though. It's about how this background affords her power and privilege. About how it (at best) limits her ability to speak for, and to, the people she claims to. About how this background has allowed her, and people like her to act as parasites and build careers on the backs of other people's struggles and suffering.

And most of all it's not about her as a person, as an individual, it's about people like her, and how and why the system creates and perpetuates them.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Well fuck off then and stop trying to claim something you nothing about is something that it isn't

I know what it is. It's a thread that contains nasty, hyena like bullying of a girl who has done fuck all to deserve it.

 

[Blagsta]

It was, along digging up her real name and background. That was stalkery and weird. Do you think that kind of behavior will make her change her opinions or what?

Its stalkery and weird to look up publically available information about a media celebrity?

 

[framed]

I'm just putting myself in the shoes of the person it's directed at. I mean for fucks sake, its's over 300 pages about an individual who writes a blog. Not even Jimmy Saville got this.

Which particular aspect of the privilege theory did Mr Savile advocate?

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

Even the fact the thread exists at this point, knowing that it is directed at one person alone makes it seem bullying and unnecessary.

On the other hand, it suggests that there is a need for an outlet for those who are fiercely opposed to the kind of bullshit identity radicalism which she so ably epitomises. There really aren't too many places where these issues are raised where can you state your dissent without getting swamped by liberal idiots scweaming wacist or misogyny. It's far from unnecessary.

 

[Belushi]

Yes.

There we have it

 

[SpineyNorman]

It was, along digging up her real name and background. That was stalkery and weird. Do you think that kind of behavior will make her change her opinions or what?

Must say that I don't get the obsession with her name either - she changed her name - so what?

And I don't think that stuff was actually dug up - I don't think any of it was really hidden. I agree that it's not especially helpful but that's really not what the thread is about.

 

[not-bono-ever]

I know I'm going to regret saying this, but I don't actually think that it's particularly surprising or wildly unreasonable that L. Penny is hostile to anyone associated with this thread. She really does get a huge amount of unjustified (and often misogynist) abuse online, which is necessarily going to make anyone defensive and/or uninterested in engaging with the content of online criticism. And even leaving that aside, if I came across a thread online with 8,000 comments about what a dickhead I am, I'm pretty sure I'd sulk about it too. Even if thousands of those critical points were fully justified.

You do have a point - link to the google "hate laurie penny" search and most of the entries are written by reactionary fucks who may well be women hating shitbags. LP does seem to attract this kind of mass reaction from certain quarters- whether she is working the crowd in some kind of double bluff and knows what she is doing, or is utterly oblivious to how toe curlingly needy & cliched some of her stuff reads.

I dont give a shit about LP personally, but I do give a shit when a wealthy Oxbridge grad is feted as an important voice of the left by the media.

 

[sleaterkinney]

It's not meant to change her opinions. It's not even about her opinions. They are largely irrelevant to the point. Her background is central though. It's about how this background affords her power and privilege. About how it (at best) limits her ability to speak for, and to, the people she claims to. About how this background has allowed her, and people like her to act as parasites and build careers on the backs of other people's struggles and suffering.

And most of all it's not about her as a person, as an individual, it's about people like her, and how and why the system creates and perpetuates them.

So it's not about changing her opinions, it's just an attack on people like her?

 

[Belushi]

The issue wasnt her name.

 

[Firky]

I'm just putting myself in the shoes of the person it's directed at. I mean for fucks sake, its's over 300 pages about an individual who writes a blog. Not even Jimmy Saville got this.

You do know that she has not just attacked individuals on here, calling them racist / sexist but also the IWCA, all of U75 etc?

 

[SpineyNorman]

I'm just putting myself in the shoes of the person it's directed at. I mean for fucks sake, its's over 300 pages about an individual who writes a blog. Not even Jimmy Saville got this.

The real bullying - the stuff with potential real life consequences - was all in the other direction. I don't understand why you're so keen to ignore that obvious, glaring fact.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Danny Finkelstein "I didn't go to either Oxford or Cambridge"

Yep, just a little bit disingenuous of the fink.