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Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

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Nigel Irritable said:
It's practically a point of principle in the Socialist Party that we squint suspiciously at any new political fad for a minimum of two decades before anyone touches it.

And joking aside, the Trotskyist groups have enough in the way of their own theoretical heritage and internal education and general critical mass to ignore suddenly fashionable ideas if they want to (or go chasing after them if they so decide), while the much more atomised and disparate Anarchist scene is inherently more vulnerable to those fashions, for good or for ill. As the radical liberals go, so too will many of the Anarchists.
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Having said all that though, if the ones at Sheffield Uni are anything to go by I reckon the swaps will end up getting infected, but then again for as long as I've been aware of them they've not been averse to jumping on liberal bandwagons so that's not much of a surprise.
 
copliker said:
This is of course a massive fucking lie. Disgusting. Gotta cook atm but I'll come back to this later.
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She misconstrues things.

I can't make my mind up if this is deliberate or if she's a bit thick. More likely she's a manipulative twat.
 
firky said:
She misconstrues things.

I can't make my mind up if this is deliberate or if she's a bit thick. More likely she's a manipulative twat.
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Smartest girl in a smart school; 9 A*; Oxford place; voice of a generation....of course she's not a manipulative twat!
 
SpineyNorman said:
Having said all that though, if the ones at Sheffield Uni are anything to go by I reckon the swaps will end up getting infected, but then again for as long as I've been aware of them they've not been averse to jumping on liberal bandwagons so that's not much of a surprise.
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They will probably make concessions to it if that's what the people they are looking to recruit believe in (and radical liberal students are an obvious target market), but it seems to me that it's very unlikely to make serious inroads into their official ideology in the short term. 1980s identity politics didn't, after all. And they still don't like the word "feminism", a relic of arguments from the early days of the women's movement.

To misquote Chairman Bob Avakian, Tony Cliff Thought has a lot of elasticity but there's a solid core.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
Check the page history. Someone added a bunch of references to this thread and other less than flattering sources, which have since been removed by someone else.
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Ahh yeah, "Born Laura Barnett".

Well she was and said so herself, not sure why that was deleted but I don't really care either.
 
Fez909 said:
I'm confused as to why a few people on this thread have gone out of their way to say they don't dismiss privilege/identity politics completely. It stuck out to me as I really don't see what privilege politics offers. I asked on the manarchism thread this question, and the last time I checked it there was no real response. So if it gives us nothing, and it shuts down debate, why are people not denouncing it in its entirety?
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Well it depends what you mean by identity politics but as I said previously I certainly think that there have been good criticisms of "the left" that have come from a feminist/BME/gay/etc perspective.

Also it would be deeply stupid and wrong to claim that there haven't been times when socialists/anarchists have discriminated against minority groups, or swept aside their concerns.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
They will probably make concessions to it if that's what the people they are looking to recruit believe in (and radical liberal students are an obvious target market), but it seems to me that it's very unlikely to make serious inroads into their official ideology in the short term. 1980s identity politics didn't, after all. And they still don't like the word "feminism", a relic of arguments from the early days of the women's movement.
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If this lot stay in the SWP and manage to get anywhere near the leadership it'll be a fucking nightmare. And they have dabbled in identity politics from time to time - look at Respect.

One of the local student swappies recently left, citing an all pervasive culture of brocialism as his reason for leaving, but has since returned. Now I have many, many criticisms of the SWP but how anyone can claim they're chauvinists of any kind is beyond me.
 
Don't get any of the 'Privilege theory' stuff because I'm an idiot or I can't be arsed reading it or something. Anyway whatever your gig, don't say 'You're a racist' and then end the conversation, block the tweet thing or just fuck off somewhere. If you say 'You're a racist or a sexist or a whatever', that's ok as long as the other person can respond and there can be a discussion. Doesn't really matter how it goes from there but if Dave says 'You're a racist' and then ends the discussion , well that's just slapping the label on and fucking off and it's bullshit. I don't know anyone here, never heard of Dave before this but I know Dave called the Spiney fella a racist and ended the conversation and that's out of order IMO. Don't know about theory stuff but still worried about 'M'.
 
firky said:
Ahh yeah, "Born Laura Barnett".

Well she was and said so herself, not sure why that was deleted but I don't really care either.
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The person who restored it...

Andrew Philip Cross (born 1963) has modified or created pages relating to art, film, jazz, literature, the media and the social sciences.

You can contact me via email, see the toolbox on the left, or via twitter @philipcross63.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philip_Cross

Articles predominantly written by this user

Paul Dacre, British newspaper editor
Shelagh Delaney, British playwright and screenwriter
Lars Gullin, Swedish jazz saxophonist
Anthony Howard, British journalist
Media Lens, British media analysis website
Stan Tracey, British jazz musician
Peregrine Worsthorne, British journalist

Heavily 'cleaned up' by this user

Mary Whitehouse, British Christian morality campaigner
 
redsquirrel said:
Well it depends what you mean by identity politics but as I said previously I certainly think that there have been good criticisms of "the left" that have come from a feminist/BME/gay/etc perspective.

Also it would be deeply stupid and wrong to claim that there haven't been times when socialist have discriminated against minority groups, or swept aside their concerns.
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Sure, both of these points are true. It's just that there's a conflation here between "privilege theory" and/or "identity politics" on the one hand and anti-racism / anti-sexism / gay liberation on the other. Privilege theory and identity politics more broadly are particular ways of approaching oppression, with particular political assumptions and conclusions embedded. They aren't synonymous with taking those forms of oppression seriously.

There's a real confusion in these kinds of discussions where people start taking about the positive features of identity politics or privilege theory when what they actually mean is that it's necessary to oppose homophobia / sexism / racism etc. Something which you can believe while opposing identity politics or privilege theory as approaches to those issues.
 
SpineyNorman said:
If this lot stay in the SWP and manage to get anywhere near the leadership it'll be a fucking nightmare. And they have dabbled in identity politics from time to time - look at Respect.

One of the local student swappies recently left, citing an all pervasive culture of brocialism as his reason for leaving, but has since returned. Now I have many, many criticisms of the SWP but how anyone can claim they're chauvinists of any kind is beyond me.
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Please tell me he didn't really use the term "brocialism".
 
redsquirrel said:
Well it depends what you mean by identity politics but as I said previously I certainly think that there have been good criticisms of "the left" that have come from a feminist/BME/gay/etc perspective.

Also it would be deeply stupid and wrong to claim that there haven't been times when socialist have discriminated against minority groups, or swept aside their concerns.
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For me, though, it's only really identity politics when these concerns trump class - and the best criticisms of some of the things we'd probably all rather forget about the old left all came from a perspective that took class as the central concern. And it has to - the problems faced by working class blacks are not the same as those faced by middle class blacks. Many of the problems they face are very similar to those of the white working class but magnified by prejudice.

My biggest problem with this privilege stuff is that you have to have a fucking phd in it to understand it well enough to know you're not offending anyone. And, in the hands of the (usually white, as often male as female) middle classes, it's just another way to silence working class people who might not get it. It ends up alienating people. It becomes a way for incredibly privileged people to paint working class people who mean no harm to anyone - who just don't understand privilege theory in all its bizarre, context free complexity - as terrible oppressors. I'll have fuck all to do with that.
 
Buckaroo said:
Don't get any of the 'Privilege theory' stuff because I'm an idiot or I can't be arsed reading it or something. Anyway whatever your gig, don't say 'You're a racist' and then end the conversation, block the tweet thing or just fuck off somewhere. If you say 'You're a racist or a sexist or a whatever', that's ok as long as the other person can respond and there can be a discussion. Doesn't really matter how it goes from there but if Dave says 'You're a racist' and then ends the discussion , well that's just slapping the label on and fucking off and it's bullshit. I don't know anyone here, never heard of Dave before this but I know Dave called the Spiney fella a racist and ended the conversation and that's out of order IMO. Don't know about theory stuff but still worried about 'M'.
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I'll do my best to find out about M mate. I'm interested too.
 
#Also it would be deeply stupid and wrong to claim that there haven't been times when socialist have discriminated against minority groups, or swept aside their concerns.#

Very true...but also many times when they've imposed discipline inspired by the primacy of class struggle; dismissing identity issues as irrelevant factionalism. Not sure this is discrimination as such...and solidarity, necessarily, means sweeping asides certain concerns of minorities occasionally.

It's a tewwible tewwible shame for the likes of LP and her 'comrades' but her brand of bourgeois special pleading and socialism are never gonna be compatible.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
Yes, there were posts along those lines. And the fundamental problem with them is that they conflate "privilege theory" with "caring about oppressions other than class". The problem is not that privilege theory is misused. It's used exactly as its supposed to be used. The problem is that privilege theory is a particularly unhelpful way of looking at oppressions other than class.
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But it certainly been taken well away from its original context which was slavery and segregation. So is it not a misappropriation to that extent?

Outside of certain forms of social apartheid its use is limited at best (or actually mystifying) but very appropriate in some historical contexts. However it is certainly no use to feminists IMO. Feminists have their own critiques of sexism/female oppression, its specificities etc..
 
Ibn Khaldoun said:
But it certainly been taken well away from its original context which was slavery and segregation. So is it not a misappropriation to that extent?
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The widespread (in the US at least) radical liberal use of "privilege" as a lense to view all forms of oppression through is certainly a long way from the original heterodox Maoist theory about the centrality of racism to US capitalism ("White Skin Privilege"), but that appropriation happened a long time before Laurie Penny started using the term.
 
SpineyNorman said:
For me, though, it's only really identity politics when these concerns trump class - and the best criticisms of some of the things we'd probably all rather forget about the old left all came from a perspective that took class as the central concern. And it has to - the problems faced by working class blacks are not the same as those faced by middle class blacks. Many of the problems they face are very similar to those of the white working class but magnified by prejudice.

My biggest problem with this privilege stuff is that you have to have a fucking phd in it to understand it well enough to know you're not offending anyone. And, in the hands of the (usually white, as often male as female) middle classes, it's just another way to silence working class people who might not get it. It ends up alienating people. It becomes a way for incredibly privileged people to paint working class people who mean no harm to anyone - who just don't understand privilege theory in all its bizarre, context free complexity - as terrible oppressors. I'll have fuck all to do with that.
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I agree with all of that - and Nigel's posts above this. Like I said it depends on what you mean by identity politics and I'm no expert in this area.
 
TruXta said:
You mean write another column for the NS?
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To be fair, anything would be better than another dull-as-fucking-ditchwater Ed Smith column. The wanker can't write a column where he doesn't refer to his sporting career as though playing cricket gave him a unique and meaningful insight into the human psyche. :facepalm:
 
Nigel Irritable said:
What, you think that the last hundred comments haven't lived up to the high standards set by the previous nine thousand?
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To be honest, I've not paid much attention to the thread until lauriepenny turned up herself. I don't like the idea of a whole load of people ganging up on anyone. It just makes me feel very uncomfortable. I know that not everyone here is acting in a bad way, but the aggregate effect is pretty nasty even if not intended.
 
redsquirrel said:
I agree with all of that - and Nigel's posts above this. Like I said it depends on what you mean by identity politics and I'm no expert in this area.
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Identity politics is a remarkably complex and highly nuanced field. Then again, all you have to remember is this: it's only complex and nuanced because white middle class guilt is complex and nuanced.
 
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