A thank you to Brexiteers.

[Barbary]

What would happen, in the event of Irish unification. Lots of celebration, followed by a dilemma. How will the hard-line republicans act? They would have cleared off the shackles of Westminster. How will they react to the shackles of the EU, now they had gain the priority of unifications. Will the IRA stay silent? I think the EU will come under fire.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Haha what the fuck.

 

[Smangus]

What would happen, in the event of Irish unification. Lots of celebration, followed by a dilemma. How will the hard-line republicans act? They would have cleared off the shackles of Westminster. How will they react to the shackles of the EU, now they had gain the priority of unifications. Will the IRA stay silent? I think the EU will come under fire.

Here we go.

 

[Barbary]

Yes that's all fine and dandy , but what's your suggested alternative to the current arrangement? A hard border? Or don't you have an alternative?

If it wasn't for all the screaming going on by remainers, who gave moral backing to the EU, the real political border would have, and should have been where it still is. The EU is an undemocratic organisation, and the Irish should wake up.

 

[Barbary]

Here we go.

You have a problem? Do you think a unified Ireland would be happy with an overlord, in the shape of the EU?

 

[Smangus]

You have a problem?

No, but I can see why the matelots don't like discussing politics with you.

Do you think a unified Ireland would be happy with an overlord, in the shape of the EU?

No evidence to suggest they wouldn't be, they are ok with it now so why not?

 

[Barbary]

No evidence to suggest they wouldn't be, they are ok with it now so why not?

You have no evidence. They do not have unification. The Republicans are happy with the present arrangement, because it suits their agenda of unification. At the moment, the EU provides a foundation they can use. It is making life difficult for the Unionists. For a Republican, what's not to like about that.

 

[Artaxerxes]

If nothing else I admire the brass neck in thinking it’s the republican’s who will cause issues if a United Ireland happens

 

[Cerv]

The EU is an artificial power.

any more so than e.g. the government of the UK, of or Ireland, or the NI assembly?

 

[Barbary]

any more so than e.g. the government of the UK, of or Ireland, or the NI assembly?

I believe those you mention still hold elections, by which a party can be removed or retained.

 

[Barbary]

If nothing else I admire the brass neck in thinking it’s the republican’s who will cause issues if a United Ireland happens

Ireland would be a Republic, as is the south. By default, Republicans. The EU, in reality, the seat of primary power.

 

[krtek a houby]

If it wasn't for all the screaming going on by remainers, who gave moral backing to the EU, the real political border would have, and should have been where it still is. The EU is an undemocratic organisation, and the Irish should wake up.

Yeah, yeah, we're totally sheeple.

There will be unity, with or without EU, so don't be worrying about us.

 

[Smangus]

Yeah, yeah, we're totally sheeple.

There will be unity, with or without EU, so don't be worrying about us.

Yeah, but wot about the EU shackles and evil overlords etc? Cor, it's a bit of a worry eh?

 

[Barbary]

Yeah, but wot about the EU shackles and evil overlords etc? Cor, it's a bit of a worry eh?

It will become relevant, in Scotland's own debate on independence. They're seeking self-determination. It will only be for five minutes, if they then end up in the EU. The debate is going to be confusing. Scotland could, of course, do what they wanted with their self-determination, but I don't think giving it away would then count as a continuation of self-determination.

 

[Pickman's model]

It will become relevant, in Scotland's own debate on independence. They're seeking self-determination. It will only be for five minutes, if they then end up in the EU. The debate is going to be confusing. Scotland could, of course, do what they wanted with their self-determination, but I don't think giving it away would then count as a continuation of self-determination.

yeh but it'd perhaps be what the scots think that counts, not you. how could it not be self-determination if they determine that they'd like to be part of something bigger?

 

[Barbary]

Yeah, yeah, we're totally sheeple.

There will be unity, with or without EU, so don't be worrying about us.

If Ireland want unification and autonomy, they could gain the first, but will not have the second, inside the EU.

 

[Barbary]

yeh but it'd perhaps be what the scots think that counts, not you. how could it not be self-determination if they determine that they'd like to be part of something bigger?

You could try and define self-determination, in the light of giving it away. Self-determination isn't meaningful, once it's handed to an external government. It ceases to be self-determination, and no more than Scotland has as members of the UK. Less than Devo max. Home rule it wouldn't be.

 

[Artaxerxes]

The only nation with true self determination is the US and even then it has obligations. Even North Korea, the most pariah and shunned of nations only exists because it’s deeply deeply tied to China.

The idea a nation can be fully sovereign is one of those moving targets that’s never quite hit. The world is globalised, bound together by a web of trade, treaties and realpolitik

 

[ska invita]

You could try and define self-determination, in the light of giving it away. Self-determination isn't meaningful, once it's handed to an external government. It ceases to be self-determination, and no more than Scotland has as members of the UK. Less than Devo max. Home rule it wouldn't be.

If Scotish people really wanted self determination they would burn down Holyrood and create a system of council communism

 

[Barbary]

The only nation with true self determination is the US and even then it has obligations. Even North Korea, the most pariah and shunned of nations only exists because it’s deeply deeply tied to China.

The idea a nation can be fully sovereign is one of those moving targets that’s never quite hit. The world is globalised, bound together by a web of trade, treaties and realpolitik

In your definitions, even the US couldn't be self-determining. It's correct to say we are all in someway tied to another. You must be able to tell the difference between independence and simply a devolved state. The Scottish would seem to have an idea. Places like New Zealand would seem to have gained an independence from the UK. So too, India. You can't try and muddle up definitions of what it is to be independent.

 

[Pickman's model]

You could try and define self-determination, in the light of giving it away. Self-determination isn't meaningful, once it's handed to an external government. It ceases to be self-determination, and no more than Scotland has as members of the UK. Less than Devo max. Home rule it wouldn't be.

that's absolute bollocks. if a polity decides that its best interests are served by being part of eg the united states or the european union - if it determines that - then that's self-determination in action. you seem to think s-d only works one way, from big to small. but the 13 british colonies that formed the nucleus of the united states decided they'd be better off as one bigger institution. s-d in action. plus the eu isn't wholly an external government. it does not enjoy all the prerogatives of a government eg it doesn't raise or collect taxes. the administration in brussels is interlinked with the governments of the member states. you're on a bit of a sticky wicket here

 

[Barbary]

If Scotish people really wanted self determination they would burn down Holyrood and create a system of council communism

Why would communism be what would be good for the Scottish, it isn't what they're looking for. They're looking for a separation from Westminster.

 

[Pickman's model]

Why would communism be what would be good for the Scottish, it isn't what they're looking for. They're looking for a separation from Westminster.

what you're looking for isn't always what's good for you

 

[Barbary]

that's absolute bollocks. if a polity decides that its best interests are served by being part of eg the united states or the european union - if it determines that - then that's self-determination in action. you seem to think s-d only works one way, from big to small. but the 13 british colonies that formed the nucleus of the united states decided they'd be better off as one bigger institution. s-d in action. plus the eu isn't wholly an external government. it does not enjoy all the prerogatives of a government eg it doesn't raise or collect taxes. the administration in brussels is interlinked with the governments of the member states. you're on a bit of a sticky wicket here

I'm not the one that is defining what the Scottish believe is the way forward to gaining independence. The Scottish have a simple understanding, they want to govern themselves. You tell me how they could do that, if they then gave the primary governance to the EU.

 

[ska invita]

Why would communism be what would be good for the Scottish, it isn't what they're looking for. They're looking for a separation from Westminster.

Sounds like you are the sole voice of the Scottish People. Keep us posted what they're having for dinner tonight.

You've missed the point of my post, we're having a theoretical conversation as to what self determination means. And the difference between indy Hollyrood in or out of the EU is not the only degree of self determination

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not the one that is defining what the Scottish believe is the way forward to gaining independence. The Scottish have a simple understanding, they want to govern themselves. You tell me how they could do that, if they then gave the primary governance to the EU.

i think the only person here with a simple understanding is you

 

[Barbary]

what you're looking for isn't always what's good for you

But you wouldn't be the one in a position to force me to accept anything. That's because I've no need to follow what you suggest. And Scotland could decide that it is in their best interest to cede power to the EU. Out of the frying pan, into the fire. But if that's what they want, they will have to be independent first.

 

[Barbary]

Sounds like you are the sole voice of the Scottish People. Keep us posted what they're having for dinner tonight.

You've missed the point of my post, we're having a theoretical conversation as to what self determination means. And the difference between indy Hollyrood in or out of the EU is not the only degree of self determination

I don't speak for the Scottish. I have an opinion.

 

[brogdale]

I'm not the one that is defining what the Scottish believe is the way forward to gaining independence. The Scottish have a simple understanding, they want to govern themselves. You tell me how they could do that, if they then gave the primary governance to the EU.

It's an interesting question, but the Scottish nationalists were seeking independence whilst the UK was a member state, so I don't see what the issue is about them seeking independence with renewed shared sovereignty...if that is what the electorate vote for.

 

[Barbary]

i think the only person here with a simple understanding is you

I understand what independence means. It follows the thinking of many a nation that decided they didn't want to remain a colony of a larger power. It is the natural way of teenagers, who want to go it alone, without parental interference. The idea is simple.