A thank you to Brexiteers.

[Smokeandsteam]

Gotta love that leave-logic; the economy is growing in the single market; let's leave the single market! Genius.

Interesting. As the Democrats in America recently discovered economic growth at a macro level butters no parsnips if the benefits of that growth is not shared out or is merely funnelled to the rich and corporations.

Is the remain worldview that if working class Poles want out of the EU - because they perceive no personal improvement to their personal standard of living - that they should pipe down lest the wider EU single market project be weakened? Or, put another way, that they should accept their own circumstances are secondary and hope that some of the economic growth might trickle down?

Incidentally, there is evidence that the actual slowdown in economic growth in Poland, and the stagnation of wages, is due to external factors - the weak eurozone being the most prominent:

Polish GDP growth slows due to weak domestic trade and external demand

There was a slowdown in Poland's GDP in the third quarter, but we expect to see improvement next year

think.ing.com

 

[The39thStep]

It's good to see a robust and coherent explanation of your decision to support Leave; thanks.

What you say about anti-EU sentiment in the 27 member states is undoubtedly correct; I'm sure there are many who hold critical views and would like to see reform of the supra-state. But the desire to seek reform suggests a degree of commitment to the project; that's quite distinct from a desire to end membership.

Recent EU wide polling suggests that exit strategies command fairly low and falling levels of support; the EU average of respondents thinking their country would be better off outside being about 25%:

View attachment 454939



I'm aware of the significant anti Common Market/EEC current within the left and Labour movement and am old enough to remember that the 1975 plebiscite to endorse/reject the UK's 1973 accession was, in part, due to irreconcilable divisions within the PLP. But turning to the sections of the left with some attachment to our class that favour exit, they must find the Brexit example unhelpful to their cause. Without being able to point to one single aspect of leaving that has been advantageous to our class it seems like a hard sell, tbh.

My remarks were actually in response to the assertion that it was 'interesting' that someone who lives in the EU could be in favour of leaving it.

 

[ska invita]

Impressive growth in their economy over the same period so maybe they think they’d be “better off without them”.

Im sure its not that but rather political manipulation
Up to now Polish people have been massively supportive of the EU precisely because they recognised that redistributive aspects of the EU meant Poland was "catching up" with western states, building infrastructure, and generally benefiting them no end.... economic growth was at least in part understood to be a result of the EU model. And that was a truism up till very recently.

I do not believe for a second that its because they're now so wealthy that all this is forgotten as some distant past.
Poland is on the front line of alt-right propaganda, with some nouveau rich anti-socialism thrown in the mix, and regarding the EU PiS have made that a key plank. Something more poisonous is up here.

 

[ska invita]

This incident was at the start of it Poland's top court ruling marks major challenge to EU laws but I can well imagine its been weaponised far beyond that

 

[ska invita]

Some different polling

Poland: attitude towards EU membership 2024 | Statista

As of March 2024, 85 percent of Polish respondents supported Polish membership of the EU, the lowest score in the observed period.

www.statista.com

Thats seems much more in keeping with what I would expect... though the big drop in 2024 is noteworthy


From a recent academic paper on this (abstract)

To put it simply, “Why does a nation of Europhiles vote for a party of Eurosceptics?”

A number of factors must be considered.
First, Poles, are often characterized as having an instrumental approach to the EU and, while seemingly Europhile, as having only superficial attachment to its institutions.
Second, Poles’ growing sense of cultural difference from Western Europe—which they share with other Central and East European (CEE) nations—has been exploited in its own support by PiS who have argued that the distinctiveness of the Polish character means that there may quite reasonably be more differences than commonalities between them and other EU member states.
Third, political polarisation of Polish society is increasing, and that is now being expressed in Polish elections.

The second culture wars one is massive I think in this time

 

[brogdale]

My remarks were actually in response to the assertion that it was 'interesting' that someone who lives in the EU could be in favour of leaving it.

Yeah, apologies for jumping in to that convo, but my points still stand. Be interesting to hear your response.

 

[brogdale]

Some different polling

Poland: attitude towards EU membership 2024 | Statista

As of March 2024, 85 percent of Polish respondents supported Polish membership of the EU, the lowest score in the observed period.

www.statista.com

View attachment 454988


Thats seems much more in keeping with what I would expect... though the big drop in 2024 is noteworthy


From a recent academic paper on this (abstract)

To put it simply, “Why does a nation of Europhiles vote for a party of Eurosceptics?”

A number of factors must be considered.
First, Poles, are often characterized as having an instrumental approach to the EU and, while seemingly Europhile, as having only superficial attachment to its institutions.
Second, Poles’ growing sense of cultural difference from Western Europe—which they share with other Central and East European (CEE) nations—has been exploited in its own support by PiS who have argued that the distinctiveness of the Polish character means that there may quite reasonably be more differences than commonalities between them and other EU member states.
Third, political polarisation of Polish society is increasing, and that is now being expressed in Polish elections.

The second culture wars one is massive I think in this time

Yeah, that provides an interesting contrast; I guess some of the difference might arise from the different questions posed.

e2a: related to what I was saying in response to The39thStep ...the UK's post 2016 experience did, for about 6 years, appear to impact negatively on anti-supra state sentiment.

 

[Ax^]

Interesting. As the Democrats in America recently discovered economic growth at a macro level butters no parsnips if the benefits of that growth is not shared out or is merely funnelled to the rich and corporations.

oh aye electing Donald Trump is going to stop the money being funnelled to the rich and corporations..

most of it will be going to that cunt and his cohorts but take that Billionaires

*shakes fist at sky

 

[Smokeandsteam]

oh aye electing Donald Trump is going to stop the money being funnelled to the rich and corporations..

most of it will be going to that cunt and his cohorts but take that Billionaires

*shakes fist at sky

A fellow remainer may be able to explain things more clearly for you:

“The first type of voter I encountered as a volunteer on the Harris phone bank was the one focused purely on the economy. It is hard for people on the European side of the Atlantic to grasp that soaring growth rates and low unemployment in the US would not be seen positively in the eyes of an American voter. But it was clear in my conversations that the Trump campaign was extremely effective at countering that story. Wages may well be rising at all levels, but everyday inflation was more discernible to voters.”

I spent hours trying to persuade US voters to choose Harris not Trump. I know why she lost | Oliver Hall

As a phone bank volunteer, I hoped to counter the Republican attacks and half-truths, but people really believed them, says journalist and podcaster Oliver Hall

www.theguardian.com

 

[Ax^]

A fellow remainer may be able to explain things more clearly for you:

“The first type of voter I encountered as a volunteer on the Harris phone bank was the one focused purely on the economy. It is hard for people on the European side of the Atlantic to grasp that soaring growth rates and low unemployment in the US would not be seen positively in the eyes of an American voter. But it was clear in my conversations that the Trump campaign was extremely effective at countering that story. Wages may well be rising at all levels, but everyday inflation was more discernible to voters.”

I spent hours trying to persuade US voters to choose Harris not Trump. I know why she lost | Oliver Hall

As a phone bank volunteer, I hoped to counter the Republican attacks and half-truths, but people really believed them, says journalist and podcaster Oliver Hall

www.theguardian.com

trump campaign racism and the price of egg..

backed by plenty of fence sitting by members of the left ..

will work wonders next time whilst the liberals and the left in American are still playing the blame game as the first trump.towet goes up in what was the west bank