brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
No offence intended, but I was picking up strong vibes from your earlier post that a decision not to engage with the tories' referendum somehow negated a right to 'pipe-up' about the outcome.
A thank you to Brexiteers.
- Thread starter MrSki
- Start date
if Hannan stated the sky were blue, it would be advisable to check out a window.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I think it would be very hard to know what was really in the minds of those engaged to persuade the electorate to vote to leave the supra-state. I too recall all of the Norwegian/EFTA/Acess to single market magical thinking; tbh I reckon they were just saying anything that they thought might persuade people to fall in with their plans.
Ax^
Silly Rabbit
but you completed the move to the EU zone before the UK had officially left correct
ska invita
back on the other side
yes maybe, but the nature of MPs position became much clearer during the power struggle in parliament that followed - and IIRC the majority of Tories even were not for a hard brexit.
Incidentally seems he continues to make the case for this - this is from 2022
Why is the biggest Brexiteer now saying the UK should have stayed in the single market?
Daniel Hannan is blaming Remainers for not compromising instead of himself.
www.newstatesman.com
Anyhow good news about the semi-socialism we are enjoying
It good to keep up to date with Daniel Hannan thinks, dont you find. Benefits of Brexit
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Maybe from the perspective of a member state resident the whole thing has been a great success?
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
just shows good sense surely
philosophical
Well-Known Member
I was a remain voter and see no point in winning over hearts and minds, because after all leave won the referendum. They dealt it, and if hurling abuse is seeing that leave voters smelled it, then good.
There is of course the beginnings of a solution seemingly staring everybody in the face, and that is the situation pertaining in one of the four constituent countries of the UK, that has not left as the other three countries seem to have done.
You could construct improvements by building on the situation in Northern Ireland bit by bit. Would leave voters accept that?
Do leave voters even know that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?
job done.
gosub
~#
You've said what you've said ad nauseum since you've been here which incidently was after the referendum. EFTA path would have avoided any NI problem but that doesn't fit with your broken record.
EFTA can't work...EUreferendum.com pushed for it . (Had a higher daily unique user count than most broad sheet in run up to referendum..and was courted and cited in both leave groups in their application for official status....I'd put the collapse of the EFTA route to a certain extent at Dr North's door started trying ti accommodate the anti freedom of movement mob..found a clause that Lichtenstein is able to use to stop freedom of movement (due to its size)....that he claimed UK would be able use...EFTA position NOW is the size of the UK in comparison to the existing members makes UK incompatible.
What happened over Brexit was FUBAR but after EUrozone got quorum (and the way that went down) plus the 'democractic' election of Junker...it was a no brained. That said ,not actually dissing Junckers handling of things
philosophical
Well-Known Member
The EFTA option (whatever the implications of that were) was not on the ballot paper.
The stark choice was leave or remain with no version of ‘leave’ described.
gosub
~#
Government guidance tax payers paid for was sent to every household. It outlined various potential leaves including EFTA
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
No version of Leave described at official government level. Brexit-supporting politicians and media outlets however reassured the public that everything would work itself out and the country would undoubtedly, absolutely, undeniably be delivered this Brexit, and don’t anyone concern themselves as to the how
Inevitably this is what we got- as it could only have been
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
This exemplifies the asymmetrical ‘choice’ offered to the electorate in the tories’ referendum. The status quo, with known pros and cons, or some undefined alternative which was dependent on the negotiating administration. Leave voters implictly entrusted the tories to effect that alternative and the result is where we are.
UK 'doesn't have enough builders' for Labour's 1.5m homes UK 'doesn't have enough builders' for Labour's 1.5m homes
Skills shortages have been an issue in the UK for some time, but the gap had been partially plugged in recent decades with workers from the European Union - a recruitment pool which has dried up after freedom of movement ended as a result of Brexit.
The HBF said 40 to 50% of skilled workers had also left the industry following the 2008 financial crash and "restrictions" had made it harder to recruit from overseas.
Mr Thomas said historically the building sector had recruited a significant number of bricklayers from eastern EU countries, admitting that "in hindsight", the UK had been over-reliant on overseas workers but it had been the "norm".
According to the industry's latest census, Romania, India and Poland were the most common countries of origin for construction workers from overseas. More than half of London's construction workforce are EU/EEA nationals.
Skills shortages have been an issue in the UK for some time, but the gap had been partially plugged in recent decades with workers from the European Union - a recruitment pool which has dried up after freedom of movement ended as a result of Brexit.
The HBF said 40 to 50% of skilled workers had also left the industry following the 2008 financial crash and "restrictions" had made it harder to recruit from overseas.
Mr Thomas said historically the building sector had recruited a significant number of bricklayers from eastern EU countries, admitting that "in hindsight", the UK had been over-reliant on overseas workers but it had been the "norm".
According to the industry's latest census, Romania, India and Poland were the most common countries of origin for construction workers from overseas. More than half of London's construction workforce are EU/EEA nationals.
philosophical
Well-Known Member
I have found this guidance from back then.
Your eyes are likely better than mine, but I can see no mention of EFTA or various potential leaves, would you mind pointing them out? There is also this one with no mention of EFTA.
The choice was a stark leave or remain.
Leave won, and there are no hearts and minds to win over from the remain side, leave won.
As was said recently on the wireless, leave shat the bed and everybody has to lay in it.
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Yossarian
Get thee behind me, Santa
With the only conceivable downside being longer passport lines outside the EU holders queue
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Why does this matter to you ?but you completed the move to the EU zone before the UK had officially left correct
I know you said it was interesting that I voted leave but live in a country that is in the EU however to me it's about 'interesting' as you being a remainer and staying in a country that has left the EU. However, if my past is that 'interesting' to you come over here and visit and you can ask me anything you want any detail to satisfy, what we can politely call , your curiosity. I don't however think an internet board is the best way for you to do that either for my or indeed your benefit.
My views that countries should be free to make their own legislation and budgets doesn't make me some outlier in Europe. Large sections of the left across Europe that has some attachment to the working class hold similar views and are critical of the EU, want it reformed, would pass laws that would come into conflict with the EU if they were elected and would hold referendums to leave if the EU obstructed them. You probably aren't aware that we used to have a similar current in the UK.
.
gosub
~#
Can't disagree with that and think the tories implicitly broke that trust...Article 50 shouldn't have been triggered without first attempting to get the electorate on the same page as to what UK would be aiming for...no such effort was made. What came across is that Tories saw the whole thing as an exercise in what to do about Farage rather than anything else
Rompipalle
“Mad as hell & I’m not going to take this anymore”
Ex-pats. What a stupid word.
What's wrong with being an immigrant?... other than it is now a term loaded with bigotry and resentment.
philosophical
Well-Known Member
Can you outline any UK legislation that it wanted to make when in the EU that the EU prevented?
Can you outline any budgetary decisions desired by the UK that was prevented by being a member of the EU?
When the UK was in the EU, the EU was not another country but a place where the UK was front and centre in decision and policy making, and even though it was clunky we the UK electorate were able to vote for those who became the EU movers and shakers.
Being subject to an unelected bureaucracy that controlled the UK was one of the biggest lies told.
Ax^
Silly Rabbit
seeming as i have an Irish passport but don't live in Ireland anymore.. you don't need to explain why you would move from one country to another ..( better quality of life/work balance , prospects etc etc )
also the common travel area between Ireland and England has existed a lot longer than the EU Zone. so i would never need to leave even with the UK leaving the Schengen zone
Just always find it interesting that almost 10 years after the vote .. and seeming last time i check the score card on the benefits of Brexit is Tomcats "fuzzy tum tum feels" and sweet FA
that the guy who champions the leave vote the hardest on here immediately took advantage of the benefits of EU membership after voting against them
sure the generation of kids we have now who don't have freedom of movement are thankful tis why i commented when i saw you remarked about some who do did not vote in the 20214 ref
also loudest voice talking about the leave vote with the EU are not the left.. quite the opposite really
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The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
ska invita
back on the other side
talking of leaving the country this is being shared around at the moment
the QR code goes to
linktr.ee
by far my biggest objection to brexit (aside from the racist and xenophobic campaign) was that it would boot people out of the country and deny them their rights and access to services.... its already happened but the full impact is still trickling in....this new year deadline another step
the QR code goes to
sds_noborders_noprisons - Listen on YouTube, Spotify - Linktree
View sds_noborders_noprisons’s Linktree. Listen to their music on YouTube, Spotify here.
linktr.ee
by far my biggest objection to brexit (aside from the racist and xenophobic campaign) was that it would boot people out of the country and deny them their rights and access to services.... its already happened but the full impact is still trickling in....this new year deadline another step
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I think you've covered a number of the reasons why I felt unable to engage with the referendum.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
It's good to see a robust and coherent explanation of your decision to support Leave; thanks.
What you say about anti-EU sentiment in the 27 member states is undoubtedly correct; I'm sure there are many who hold critical views and would like to see reform of the supra-state. But the desire to seek reform suggests a degree of commitment to the project; that's quite distinct from a desire to end membership.
Recent EU wide polling suggests that exit strategies command fairly low and falling levels of support; the EU average of respondents thinking their country would be better off outside being about 25%:
I'm aware of the significant anti Common Market/EEC current within the left and Labour movement and am old enough to remember that the 1975 plebiscite to endorse/reject the UK's 1973 accession was, in part, due to irreconcilable divisions within the PLP. But turning to the sections of the left with some attachment to our class that favour exit, they must find the Brexit example unhelpful to their cause. Without being able to point to one single aspect of leaving that has been advantageous to our class it seems like a hard sell, tbh.
ska invita
back on the other side
Am I understanding that right that Poland has the biggest anti-EU percentage on that?
That's incredible if so.... Less then a decade ago Poland had the biggest approval rate for the EU from members, which made sense as the country benefited perhaps more than any other in the financial handouts. Ultra conservative PiS went for the EU in their last days (after this European Commission sues Poland over EU law violations by top court ) but the fact that such a popular opinion has been reversed in such a quick period of time is shocking to me
Impressive growth in their economy over the same period so maybe they think they’d be “better off without them”.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Gotta love that leave-logic; the economy is growing in the single market; let's leave the single market! Genius.
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