A thank you to Brexiteers.

[Pickman's model]

But you wouldn't be the one in a position to force me to accept anything. That's because I've no need to follow what you suggest. And Scotland could decide that it is in their best interest to cede power to the EU. Out of the frying pan, into the fire. But if that's what they want, they will have to be independent first.

you say that like it's important

 

[Pickman's model]

I understand what independence means. It follows the thinking of many a nation that decided they didn't want to remain a colony of a larger power. It is the natural way of teenagers, who want to go it alone, without parental interference. The idea is simple.

no, you don't understand what independence means or you wouldn't have posted up that pile of shite about self-determination becoming meaningless if you join an external government.

 

[Barbary]

It's an interesting question, but the Scottish nationalists were seeking independence whilst the UK was a member state, so I don't see what the issue is about them seeking independence with renewed shared sovereignty...if that is what the electorate vote for.

You've used the word share. The Scottish are already sharing power with Westminster. They're saying - no thanks, to sharing.

 

[Barbary]

you say that like it's important

What? Be specific.

 

[Barbary]

no, you don't understand what independence means or you wouldn't have posted up that pile of shite about self-determination becoming meaningless if you join an external government.

I can see your idea of independence means something different; it doesn't look like independence to me.

 

[Pickman's model]

I can see your idea of independence means something different; it doesn't look like independence to me.

independence is independence to do what you will with your autonomy. obviously.

 

[Barbary]

independence is independence to do what you will with your autonomy. obviously.

Not if you give away your right to be independent, or to act independently. There's no two ways about it, once you're independent, you can make your own mistakes.

 

[philosophical]

Member countries don’t cede power or give up ‘sovereignty’ to the EU. They are in the mix making the rules just as the UK did. When the UK was properly in the EU it was never a question of them and us, but us and us.
Accepting the benefits of joint enterprise with others in the EU was similar to agreeing and accepting which side of the road to drive on.
There was never an unelected bureaucracy of ‘foreigners’ making up the rules for the UK to unwillingly follow, no power was ever ceded, nor is power ceded by member countries now. The EU may well be clunky, and have faults, but it is an entity created by member countries.
‘

 

[Pickman's model]

Not if you give away your right to be independent.

it's like talking to that prize arse philosophical, only you don't have his wit, easy charm or political nous

 

[Barbary]

it's like talking to that prize arse philosophical, only you don't have his wit, easy charm or political nous

I'm being independent. No need to follow your thinking.

 

[Barbary]

Member countries don’t cede power or give up ‘sovereignty’ to the EU. They are in the mix making the rules just as the UK did. When the UK was properly in the EU it was never a question of them and us, but us and us.
Accepting the benefits of joint enterprise with others in the EU was similar to agreeing and accepting which side of the road to drive on.
There was never an unelected bureaucracy of ‘foreigners’ making up the rules for the UK to unwillingly follow, no power was ever ceded, nor is power ceded by member countries now. The EU may well be clunky, and have faults, but it is an entity created by member countries.
‘

When a government cannot be voted in or out, the electorate have problems.

 

[Pickman's model]

When a government cannot be voted in or out, the electorate have problems.

so for all the years between elections the electorate have problems

 

[Barbary]

so for all the years between elections the electorate have problems

No. When it's time for a general election, the electorate get to have a choice. You couldn't remove the EU. Yes, I know we eventually did, but not in an easy way. When a general election is announced, it's a matter of months to its conclusion, not years. Or rather decades, if you take it from the last time we were asked a similar question on Europe - 1975.

 

[bimble]

Looks like the puritan/headbangers are giving it their best to stop the NI deal going through. If braverman resigns in protest that will be an actual brexit benefit. Don’t think she will though.

 

[Pickman's model]

Looks like the puritan/headbangers are giving it their best to stop the NI deal going through. If braverman resigns in protest that will be an actual brexit benefit. Don’t think she will though.

you won't like who they'd get in at the home office next

 

[Barbary]

There was never an unelected bureaucracy of ‘foreigners’ making up the rules for the UK to unwillingly follow, no power was ever ceded, nor is power ceded by member countries now. The EU may well be clunky, and have faults, but it is an entity created by member countries.
‘

There is over 700 members in the EU parliament, we didn't get to vote on 90%. In the Council, we didn't get to vote on 27 of its members. We didn't get a say on the executive Commission. And people in the UK complain of a Tory majority in our UK parliament. Well, it isn't a 90% majority. Yet re-joiners see no conflict in that.

Countries definitely do cede power and sovereignty. You couldn't have a unity of 28 nations without giving up the concept of self. But do you think any of the other countries would be thinking of the UK, and not themselves. The EU is a nonsense.

 

[Cerv]

there are 650 MPs at Westminster.
we each don't get to vote for 99.8 % of them.
your conception of representative democracy is incoherent nonsense.

 

[Benjamin F]

We didn't get a say on the executive Commission.

The European Commission is the civil service. You don't get a say on who is appointed into the higher reaches of the UK civil service either.

There is over 700 members in the EU parliament, we didn't get to vote on 90%. the Council, we didn't get to vote on 27 of its members.

In a UK election I only get to vote in one constituency and not in the other 649, does that mean UK Parliament is undemocratic. Also as the EU Executive had qualified majority voting (which gave larger countries France, Germany and formerly the UK far greater power to veto) as well as issues on which unanimity was required, the EU seemed more democratic than say a Parliament with an unelected House of Lords. Which admittedly isn't saying much given the institutions of UK political power.

I say this with no skin in the game as I am not a supporter of the EU or whatever capitalist political-economy is currently replacing it.

 

[two sheds]

If it wasn't for all the screaming going on by remainers, who gave moral backing to the EU, the real political border would have, and should have been where it still is.

I'm confused - as I understand it philosophical blames leavers for the political border being where it is.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm confused - as I understand it philosophical blames leavers for the political border being where it is.

sadly there's been a border there for a mite over 100 years

 

[Barbary]

there are 650 MPs at Westminster.
we each don't get to vote for 99.8 % of them.
your conception of representative democracy is incoherent nonsense.

We only had 73 MEPs to vote in. And that was into a government we couldn't change.

 

[Barbary]

The European Commission is the civil service. You don't get a say on who is appointed into the higher reaches of the UK civil service either.

So, the head of our UK civil service has as much power as the EU President. ?

 

[Barbary]

I'm confused - as I understand it philosophical blames leavers for the political border being where it is.

That is the position re-joiners take. Brexiters are supposed to accept that re-joiners were sitting around totally indifferent and innocent.

 

[Barbary]

I say this with no skin in the game as I am not a supporter of the EU or whatever capitalist political-economy is currently replacing it.

What you get to do as a voter in the UK is to be part of choosing to elect candidates that may change the government. Whatever the face change in the MEPs, you were still electing candidates to sit in the same government. That didn't change. EU citizens may as well be living in China.

 

[brogdale]

You've used the word share. The Scottish are already sharing power with Westminster. They're saying - no thanks, to sharing.

Well no, we're only really talking about nationalist supporters here, aren't we, not "the Scottish". As I understand the nationalists' position, they desire independence from the UK and wish to apply to rejoin the supra state involving the shared sovereignty that existed pre-Brexit.

 

[Lurdan]

you won't like who they'd get in at the home office next

Home Secretaries all die eventually. I've always liked them for that.

 

[bimble]

Can’t believe people are even responding with serious faces and full sentences to this persons weird sovereignty stuff tbh.

. You couldn't have a unity of 28 nations without giving up the concept of self. But do you think any of the other countries would be thinking of the UK, and not themselves.

 

[Benjamin F]

So, the head of our UK civil service has as much power as the EU President. ?

The EU President, because of their limited power, is elected by members of European Parliament ( so more democratically accountable that head of UK Civil service). Can you name one law that has been passed though on just the whim of the EU President and not ratified by the Council of Ministers (made up of the elected members of member states)? Their role is more a convenor or speaker as, as far as I know, they have no executive power (unlike the President of the USA).

 

[Pickman's model]

What you get to do as a voter in the UK is to be part of choosing to elect candidates that may change the government. Whatever the face change in the MEPs, you were still electing candidates to sit in the same government. That didn't change. EU citizens may as well be living in China.

some of them are

 

[Tanya1982]

That is the position re-joiners take. Brexiters are supposed to accept that re-joiners were sitting around totally indifferent and innocent.

No. You’re supposed to accept that this is what you wanted, and it’s what everyone got. You can’t say nobody told you it would be a fucking mess, because it was pointed out the whole way along.