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A thank you to Brexiteers.

teqniq said:
If you think it' going to happen under the likes od a Starmer government, you too are indulging in fantasy. Starmer and the power behind the throne Mandleson are all about preserving the neoliberal status quo.
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Without a shadow of a doubt but:

a) Labour are likely to be elected in economic crisis: inflation, strikes, poverty, rampant inequality and stagflation. 'Steady as she goes' isn't likely to be a sustainable position or enough to quell the mood for change.
b) its worth asking what 'the neoliberal status quo' looks like in 2023/4. Even the CBI are calling for investment, an industrial strategy and a renewal programme driven by the state via an infrastructure programme akin to Biden's.
 
brogdale said:
I really don't think I have hidden my views or hidden behind those of others. I appreciate that you don't agree with or see any value in my analysis that brexit is essentially a meaningless distraction from the real battle of forces in neoliberalism. I've consistently argued that what was presented to the UK electorate in 2016 was merely a choice between 2 alternative visions of how to progress the neoliberal agenda. That some on 'the left' saw one of those alternatives as a means to achieving socialism in one country has constantly interested me.
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I don't think we're going to make any progress on this one!

Btw I hope I haven't come across as too aggressive, I was aiming for friendly argument I'm not the best at judging my tone though so apologise if it seemed otherwise
 
bimble said:
Why actually did the EU do things like the working time directive maternity & mandatory sick pay laws etc ?
Was it to ‘level the playing field’ so that no member state could (legally) have sweatshops and so massively undercut the cost of producing widgets in other member states or was it something else. ?


ETA lol. The UK was the only member who voted against it, the cap on working hours, thirty years ago, and got overruled.
View attachment 363199
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I remembered when I read your post that butchersapron shared an article a few years back to do with the history and decline of social europe* and I had a look for it and checked and the link is still live in the post here
Thought you might be interested to read it. Treats it in phases in the context of wider struggles in Europe.

* brogdale will be happy to know the article is by Streeck! 😊
 
Smokeandsteam said:
Without a shadow of a doubt but:

a) Labour are likely to be elected in economic crisis: inflation, strikes, poverty, rampant inequality and stagflation. 'Steady as she goes' isn't likely to be a sustainable position or enough to quell the mood for change.
b) its worth asking what 'the neoliberal status quo' looks like in 2023/4. Even the CBI are calling for investment, an industrial strategy and a renewal programme driven by the state via an infrastructure programme akin to Biden's.
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Maybe so. If they are elected I hope you're right, and yes I do seem to recall big business calling for investment. Things like that are going to be difficult for them to ignore.
 
inva said:
I remembered when I read your post that butchersapron shared an article a few years back to do with the history and decline of social europe* and I had a look for it and checked and the link is still live in the post here
Thought you might be interested to read it. Treats it in phases in the context of wider struggles in Europe.

* brogdale will be happy to know the article is by Streeck! 😊
Click to expand...

I had completely forgotten this paper by Streeck. It is a very good historical account of the political and economic degeneration of the EU project and well worth a read.
 
Workers paradise any day now lads (yes I know it's not strictly Brexit related but Rishi was a brexiteer)

Fo_hZ7pXoAAAtPZ
 
Pickman's model said:
Clearly some people can. When everyone can the number of sick notes will be rather higher
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I suppose so; I'm just reeling from how quickly primary health-care access has collapsed at my local practice. For those without the ability to use an app, the ability to secure an appointment by phone has effectively ended; every time I've tried at 8.00am the app users (open at 7.00am have got all available times).
 
brogdale said:
I suppose so; I'm just reeling from how quickly primary health-care access has collapsed at my local practice. For those without the ability to use an app, the ability to secure an appointment by phone has effectively ended; every time I've tried at 8.00am the app users (open at 7.00am have got all available times).
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You have to go online to do it, again at 8am, and even then you can watch the slots vanish in seconds.
 
ska invita said:
Tbf I genuinely don't see what this has to do with Brexit. This really does sound like standard Tory daily shit
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They're desperately trying to heal the UK's low productivity by getting people to work more. Fewer EU workers doesn't just mean everyone's pay goes up because of supply and demand, it turns out.

In a similar vein, we've had suggestions that early retirement should be discouraged, and that parents should be given childcare support from a child's birth so they can stop slacking.
 
Artaxerxes said:
You have to go online to do it, again at 8am, and even then you can watch the slots vanish in seconds.
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If you have the hardware capable of supporting the app, the ability to navigate the app (inc. set-up), the willingness to share all of the personal details/photo ID etc (assuming you have a passport or photo ID driving licence) and the time (away from caring responsibilities) to be available at 7am to make the appt.

But this is a massive derail; do we have a problems with GP appts thread?
 
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brogdale said:
Snarky, playground, unworthy or non-serious it may or may not be, but it does again highlight one of the most problematic aspects of the lexit position; that the wagon had to be hitched to the caravan of some of the most repugnant, rapacious right-wing elements that befoul our body politic.
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Or that remain supporters, many who self identified as anti capitalist all their lives prior to 2016, threw away all their politics and supported the most capitalist organisation/bloc of countries in the world.

It seems that for remainers, all that matters is their dreams of working abroad and retiring to Tuscany.
 
TopCat said:
Or that remain supporters, many who self identified as anti capitalist all their lives prior to 2016, threw away all their politics and supported the most capitalist organisation/bloc of countries in the world.

It seems that for remainers, all that matters is their dreams of working abroad and retiring to Tuscany.
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Assuming I manage to relocate to France and still have a vote in any future referendum or whatever, I may have to take into account the favourability of the exchange rate - the UK accepting the euro vs the country continuing to go down the plughole and taking my pensions with it ...

As to the other thing, I liked the EU because of its moderating effects on neoliberalism and its going after tax havens and money laundering etc ...

After some very unpleasant forces took us out, I have had to accept that I care more about stable economies than the Tories - those who aren't actually self-serving crooks, appear to be morons.

Mostly it makes more sense than 27 small nations trying to deal with superpowers individually.

EDIT:-

As it happens, the UK govt has been forced to reinstate the reciprocal post-66 healthcare arrangements with both France and Spain ...
So the main difference in terms of emigrating to France as a non-EU citizen is that the UK state pension would no longer be sufficient funds so it's only fortunate people like me with a decent company pension who can now move to France - who require minimum wage ("SMIC") levels of income.
I never understood how people actually managed to live in France on £500 a month, but that was apparently the EU threshold for a single person - or 800 for a couple...
 
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gentlegreen said:
Assuming I manage to relocate to France and still have a vote in any future referendum or whatever, I may have to take into account the favourability of the exchange rate - the UK accepting the euro vs the country continuing to go down the plughole and taking my pensions with it ...

As to the other thing, I liked the EU because of its moderating effects on neoliberalism and its going after tax havens and money laundering etc ...

After some very unpleasant forces took us out, I have had to accept that I care more about stable economies than the Tories - those who aren't actually self-serving crooks, appear to be morons.

Mostly it makes more sense than 27 small nations trying to deal with superpowers individually.

EDIT:-

As it happens, the UK govt has been forced to reinstate the reciprocal post-66 healthcare arrangements with both France and Spain ...
So the main difference in terms of emigrating to France as a non-EU citizen is that the UK state pension would no longer be sufficient funds so it's only fortunate people like me with a decent company pension who can now move to France - who require minimum wage ("SMIC") levels of income.
I never understood how people actually managed to live in France on £500 a month, but that was apparently the EU threshold for a single person - or 800 for a couple...
Click to expand...
Inclined to leave most of this parked to see how it ages, but the bold bit....On Ukraine for example Senior MEPs standing up in European Parliament saying Europe was defenseless and need a EUro Army whilst troops from his own country (and others) had already mobilized and were carrying out training exercises in neighbouring Romania. Can't imagine the EU was that happy about what happened to Nordstream 2 either The Norweigan Polish pipeline that opened the day before wasn't down them either though.

For EU common foreign policy read either amplified German outlook or computer says no. Which is interesting w cos when the Germans got told computer says no with regards China ...they went anyway
 
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