A thank you to Brexiteers.

[Raheem]

Why did the UK not join the EU's vaccine procurement group? Because the UK had left the EU.

These are simple facts...

Looks like an opinion to me.

I think it is correct to say the UK has not participated in any EU voluntary joint working initiative for over a decade. So it might reasonably be suggested that the reason the UK didn't join the JPA is that it had a Conservative government at the time.

 

[The39thStep]

It's ironic that many of the EU can do no wrong/UK can do no right views that some Remainers put over on here would be laughed at in Europe.

 

[cupid_stunt]

'there's no evidence for' is unsurprising being as no one yet has had 12 weeks between doses of pfizer. let's hope we don't find a load of evidence.

Studies have shown that efficacy of the pfizer one remained high at 12 weeks, and tens of thousands of people have indeed had their second dose now.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Studies have shown that efficacy of the pfizer one remained high at 12 weeks, and tens of thousands of people have indeed had their second dose now.

Prioritising first jab was a gamble. Experts disagreed with one another about its wisdom. However, sometimes being overly risk-averse is itself a risk, and being overly risk-averse does appear to have harmed the EU's vaccine approach thus far.

We shouldn't go overboard in praising this govt for its decision in this instance (about bloody time they got something right), but there's no harm in acknowledging that they appear to have got it right.

 

[Pickman's model]

Studies have shown that efficacy of the pfizer one remained high at 12 weeks, and tens of thousands of people have indeed had their second dose now.

underlined bit utterly irrelevant, un-underlined bit of dubious value as you've already said there's no evidence.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Looks like an opinion to me.

I think it is correct to say the UK has not participated in any EU voluntary joint working initiative for over a decade. So it might reasonably be suggested that the reason the UK didn't join the JPA is that it had a Conservative government at the time.

 

[kebabking]

Prioritising first jab was a gamble. Experts disagreed with one another about its wisdom. However, sometimes being overly risk-averse is itself a risk, and being overly risk-averse does appear to have harmed the EU's vaccine approach thus far.

We shouldn't go overboard in praising this govt for its decision in this instance (about bloody time they got something right), but there's no harm in acknowledging that they appear to have got it right.

Absolutely. It would be interesting to see some figures for what the EU saved by spending several months haggling over the price of the vaccines compared to how much the several extra months of lockdown/pandemic will cost them.

I wouldn't fall of my chair if the UK's 'shut up and take my money' approach to vaccine procurement turns out to have been cheap at twice the price.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Popcorny bin race then?

Salty popcorn, without question.

 

[dessiato]

It's ironic that many of the EU can do no wrong/UK can do no right views that some Remainers put over on here would be laughed at in Europe.

I would guess that you, like me, having spent time living and working in the EU are often surprised by both the Brexit and Remainer arguments.

My feeling is that there's both good and bad in the EU, but there's more good than bad. Staying in was better than leaving.

 

[Pickman's model]

I would guess that you, like me, having spent time living and working in the EU are often surprised by both the Brexit and Remainer arguments.

My feeling is that there's both good and bad in the EU, but there's more good than bad. Staying in was better than leaving.

imagine the sort of ephemeral things we could have been discussing instead since '16

 

[krtek a houby]

imagine the sort of ephemeral things we could have been discussing instead since '16

1916 says hold my beer

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Yesterday's Observer piece about how well the UK is doing and how the Germans are jealous of us seems relevant. But I can't read it properly because the opening makes me too furious. I hate to say it, but Britain's doing OK. Even Germany envies us...

I wonder what the German compound word for the opposite of schadenfreude is. Siegweinen, maybe? Answers on a postcard.

 

[kebabking]

I would guess that you, like me, having spent time living and working in the EU are often surprised by both the Brexit and Remainer arguments.

My feeling is that there's both good and bad in the EU, but there's more good than bad. Staying in was better than leaving.

For me, the most bizarre thing about the argument from the remain side (and I voted remain) is that it focused (and still focuses) on stuff like travel and paperwork, while completely ignoring the whole 'over-state' with a parliament, judiciary, executive, foreign policy, economic policy, currency, military command apparatus.

Think about it another way - someone suggests that the UK should join the US, and bases their argument solely on the advantages of being able to live in Montana and shop in Wal-Mart, and resolutely ignores everything else: the system of government, the economy, political culture, the divisions in its society.

You'd assume that person was a moron, wouldn't you?

 

[krtek a houby]

Don't think using the word "moron" is constructive, whether or not folks are favourable to Brexit.

 

[Raheem]

View attachment 256788

That's side-splitting, but it's not what I said. I said it's an opinion, not an objective fact.

 

[Maggot]

If 2016 led to a hard brexit, it was partly because remainers insisted on the fantasy of overturning the vote, instead of fighting for the only real option they had, which was to ensure that leave took the form of "divorce with bed rights" with the option of possibly rejoining ten or twenty years down the line.

People who voted for Brexit, blaming people who didn't vote for Brexit for the current shitstorm? Priceless

 

[dessiato]

For me, the most bizarre thing about the argument from the remain side (and I voted remain) is that it focused (and still focuses) on stuff like travel and paperwork, while completely ignoring the whole 'over-state' with a parliament, judiciary, executive, foreign policy, economic policy, currency, military command apparatus.

Think about it another way - someone suggests that the UK should join the US, and bases their argument solely on the advantages of being able to live in Montana and shop in Wal-Mart, and resolutely ignores everything else: the system of government, the economy, political culture, the divisions in its society.

You'd assume that person was a moron, wouldn't you?

I do take your point, but my quoted response was in response to another poster who was, in turn, responding to an earlier post.

 

[dessiato]

People who voted for Brexit, blaming people who didn't vote for Brexit for the current shitstorm? Priceless

Unfortunately it is happening on, eg, Facebook. I’ve read posts saying that if the Remai voters had just got over it, then everything would have gone smoothly and much better than they did.

 

[NoXion]

For me, the most bizarre thing about the argument from the remain side (and I voted remain) is that it focused (and still focuses) on stuff like travel and paperwork, while completely ignoring the whole 'over-state' with a parliament, judiciary, executive, foreign policy, economic policy, currency, military command apparatus.

Think about it another way - someone suggests that the UK should join the US, and bases their argument solely on the advantages of being able to live in Montana and shop in Wal-Mart, and resolutely ignores everything else: the system of government, the economy, political culture, the divisions in its society.

You'd assume that person was a moron, wouldn't you?

I think there's been a rather successful propaganda effort to depict the EU supra-state as anything but.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

For me, the most bizarre thing about the argument from the remain side (and I voted remain) is that it focused (and still focuses) on stuff like travel and paperwork, while completely ignoring the whole 'over-state' with a parliament, judiciary, executive, foreign policy, economic policy, currency, military command apparatus.

Most remainer arguments I’m seeing are:

1. based on a misunderstanding of what Europe is and what the EU is and the obvious difference (“I don’t want to leave Europe”, “we are Europeans” etc)
2. cobbled together 1990’s style TUC analysis of the benefits of ‘a social Europe’ - which the troika of the ECB, IMF and EC has long condemned to the dustbin of political economy
3. bourgeois offence about things like the right to be a student in France - when for working class kids even going to university in their home city appears a distant dream
4.frankly bizarre arguments over immediate transitional government problems/issues. Bizarre because leaving a political construct that we’ve been embedded in for over half a century has actually gone remarkably smoothly. As you say, anger about paperwork.

My frustration with the entire debate is, essentially, that there is no remainer argument of any substance to engage with. Like you, kebabking, most sensible remainers have accepted the result and moved on. Even third way neo-liberals like Starmer and Sturgeon have either forgotten their previous apocalyptic warnings or dialled them right down.

There are no serious and well constructed arguments for what a reformed EU might look like being written. There is no substance, nothing to really engage with.

Instead what’s left, and there is no getting around it, is the tin foil hat wing...as these threads on U75 increasingly demonstrate.

 

[Pickman's model]

Don't think using the word "moron" is constructive, whether or not folks are favourable to Brexit.

not everyone wants to be constructive

 

[Spymaster]

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Most remainer arguments I’m seeing are:

1. based on a misunderstanding of what Europe is and what the EU is and the obvious difference (“I don’t want to leave Europe”, “we are Europeans” etc)
2. cobbled together 1990’s style TUC analysis of the benefits of ‘a social Europe’ - which the troika of the ECB, IMF and EC has long condemned to the dustbin of political economy
3. bourgeois offence about things like the right to be a student in France - when for working class kids even going to university in their home city appears a distant dream
4.frankly bizarre arguments over immediate transitional government problems/issues. Bizarre because leaving a political construct that we’ve been embedded in for over half a century has actually gone remarkably smoothly. As you say, anger about paperwork.

My frustration with the entire debate is, essentially, that there is no remainer argument of any substance to engage with. Like you, kebabking, most sensible remainers have accepted the result and moved on. Even third way neo-liberals like Starmer and Sturgeon have either forgotten their previous apocalyptic warnings or dialled them right down.

There are no serious and well constructed arguments for what a reformed EU might look like being written. There is no substance, nothing to really engage with.

Instead what’s left, and there is no getting around it, is the tin foil hat wing...as these threads on U75 increasingly demonstrate.

Yeah, but DJ mixers...

 

[Ax^]

missed this thread last night


but seeming as i'm bimbling about the house with my first day off all year

I'd love to thank everyone who voted for Brexit every time i do an export entry to Europe
or having to spend the first month of the year figuring out how to get shit to north ireland and 2 months trying to figure out spanish customs

legit latin american is easier

 

[brogdale]

missed this thread last night


but seeming as i'm bimbling about the house with my first day off all year

I'd love to thank everyone who voted for Brexit every time i do an export entry to Europe
or having to spend the first month of the year figuring out how to get shit to north ireland and 2 months trying to figure out spanish customs

legit latin american is easier

We have to conclude that capitalism needs nationalism more than it needs the accumulation from your firm.

 

[Ax^]

...

 

[sleaterkinney]

.

No idea while I’m still doing this shit.

 

[not-bono-ever]

.

 

[Pickman's model]

.

No idea while I’m still doing this shit.

i'm not sure why you are either

 

[gosub]

Most remainer arguments I’m seeing are:

1. based on a misunderstanding of what Europe is and what the EU is and the obvious difference (“I don’t want to leave Europe”, “we are Europeans” etc)
2. cobbled together 1990’s style TUC analysis of the benefits of ‘a social Europe’ - which the troika of the ECB, IMF and EC has long condemned to the dustbin of political economy
3. bourgeois offence about things like the right to be a student in France - when for working class kids even going to university in their home city appears a distant dream
4.frankly bizarre arguments over immediate transitional government problems/issues. Bizarre because leaving a political construct that we’ve been embedded in for over half a century has actually gone remarkably smoothly. As you say, anger about paperwork.

My frustration with the entire debate is, essentially, that there is no remainer argument of any substance to engage with. Like you, kebabking, most sensible remainers have accepted the result and moved on. Even third way neo-liberals like Starmer and Sturgeon have either forgotten their previous apocalyptic warnings or dialled them right down.

There are no serious and well constructed arguments for what a reformed EU might look like being written. There is no substance, nothing to really engage with.

Instead what’s left, and there is no getting around it, is the tin foil hat wing...as these threads on U75 increasingly demonstrate.

The bulk of the reform needed, has the EUro at its core and if the remainers had been paying attention to EUropean politics prior to the referendum the EUro-zone made damn clear to Cameron how much they valued the UK's input, Christ they didn't even value our opinion of 'electing' Juncker.

I'm not sure if we are being asked to pretend there was was n't a concerted efforts to over turn the referendum, but stay in and reform would have been a disaster.

This isn't the Brexit I wanted, nor expected, but its the one we've got. I do know it took 20 years to get the referendum, excuse me if I don't put too much effort into having another one.