A thank you to Brexiteers.

[Maggot]

Is this another of those not in the least passive aggressive threads like the last not in the least passive aggressive thread you started a couple of weeks ago?

It was me that started that other thread. There is more than one anti Brexit poster on here.

Also I think you are confusing passive aggression with sarcasm.

 

[Knotted]

With everything that's gone on the last year, I'm amazed anybody can summon the energy to care one way or the other about Brexit.

 

[David Clapson]

Yesterday's Observer piece about how well the UK is doing and how the Germans are jealous of us seems relevant. But I can't read it properly because the opening makes me too furious. I hate to say it, but Britain's doing OK. Even Germany envies us...

 

[krtek a houby]

Wasn't there another thread where we all actually started talking about the benefits of brexit? Where did it go?

This thread is one of the benefits of Brexit. 'tis very meta.

 

[BobDavis]

I seem to recall Holland & France did want to do their own vaccine procurement but were persuaded (lent on ?) by Merkel to join in the EU wide programme for the sake of EU unity. I would think that was because of brexit yes & Merkel is desperate for EU unity. I don’t think it was ever going to work very well because the EU countries are too diverse. I don’t think even the most ardent remainers can deny here that it is the EU that is the bad actor in this.

A low point was the EU threatening to upset things in NI & it looked like them throwing toys out of their pram. Then the seeds of doubt about the partly UK developed Astra Zeneca being sown by leading EU politicians who should have known better. You can read into it what you like but it is not a good look for the EU. The overall look to me is that the EU put politics before putting vaccine into peoples arms.

 

[kebabking]

One of the benefits of brexit is that through their condescending, insulting, entitled, tin-eared outrage - which went down like cold sick amongst the electorate, both leave and remain - a certain section of the political class have consigned themselves to the political wilderness.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with, on balance and after considering all the issues, believing that the UK should be a member of the EU - there is however, as should by now be astonishingly apparent to these political geniuses, a great deal wrong with slagging off everyone who doesn't agree with your analysis as a thick racist and attempting to overturn the result of a referendum because you think that other people just aren't bright enough to understand the issues in the way you do...

How are those #FBPE tags working out for you...?

 

[bimble]

Happy March everyone glad to see things have moved on.
Just remember that Switzerland has managed to totally fuck up their vaccine procurement & rollout all on their own, without the EU helping them do it at all.
They’ve fucked it so spectacularly that it’s being done differently in each canton, and my 74 yr old folks are told to wait for a letter probably sometime in May.

 

[Pickman's model]

I seem to recall Holland & France did want to do their own vaccine procurement but were persuaded (lent on ?) by Merkel to join in the EU wide programme for the sake of EU unity. I would think that was because of brexit yes & Merkel is desperate for EU unity. I don’t think it was ever going to work very well because the EU countries are too diverse. I don’t think even the most ardent remainers can deny here that it is the EU that is the bad actor in this.

A low point was the EU threatening to upset things in NI & it looked like them throwing toys out of their pram. Then the seeds of doubt about the partly UK developed Astra Zeneca being sown by leading EU politicians who should have known better. You can read into it what you like but it is not a good look for the EU. The overall look to me is that the EU put politics before putting vaccine into peoples arms.

Putting vaccine into people's arms is political.

 

[Pickman's model]

Happy March everyone glad to see things have moved on.
Just remember that Switzerland has managed to totally fuck up their vaccine procurement & rollout all on their own, without the EU helping them do it at all.
They’ve fucked it so spectacularly that it’s being done differently in each canton, and my 74 yr old folks are told to wait for a letter probably sometime in May.

Time passing is not the same as things moving on

 

[BobDavis]

Putting vaccine into people's arms is political.

I think the EU have made it political yes but it should not be. One could even say that it has been made political in this country by suggesting it is not our government that should take the credit but our NHS & so on but that does not take away the overall success of the UK vaccination programme which in the end is all that matters.

I suppose one could argue that if the separate EU countries had gone it alone like UK then the smaller poorer EU countries might have missed out but fact is UK vaccination programme has been successful & the EU’s has not. One should avoid any sort of nationalist jingoism though because for the vaccination programme to be a total success it needs to be successful worldwide.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think the EU have made it political yes but it should not be. One could even say that it has been made political in this country by suggesting it is not our government that should take the credit but our NHS & so on but that does not take away the overall success of the UK vaccination programme which in the end is all that matters.

I suppose one could argue that if the separate EU countries had gone it alone like UK then the smaller poorer EU countries might have missed out but fact is UK vaccination programme has been successful & the EU’s has not. One should avoid any sort of nationalist jingoism though because for the vaccination programme to be a total success it needs to be worldwide.

It is political. Not it has been made political. It is political. The success of the UK vaccination programme is not all that matters.

 

[BobDavis]

It is political. Not it has been made political. It is political.

Explain how me going to my local vaccination centre to get vaccinated a couple of weeks ago was a political act. It did not seem like one to me.

 

[kebabking]

I think the EU have made it political yes but it should not be. One could even say that it has been made political in this country by suggesting it is not our government that should take the credit but our NHS & so on but that does not take away the overall success of the UK vaccination programme which in the end is all that matters.

I suppose one could argue that if the separate EU countries had gone it alone like UK then the smaller poorer EU countries might have missed out but fact is UK vaccination programme has been successful & the EU’s has not. One should avoid any sort of nationalist jingoism though because for the vaccination programme to be a total success it needs to be successful worldwide.

When looking at the EU vaccine procurement programme I think it's probably worth separating the the idea of 27 states getting together to buy a vaccine (potentially, imv, a very good idea), and getting the EU structures to do it....

 

[Pickman's model]

Explain how me going to my local vaccination centre to get vaccinated a couple of weeks ago was a political act. It did not seem like one to me.

No it wouldn't. You talked of putting vaccine in people's arms. Putting vaccine in people's arms. Do you understand what you say or do the words bubble unthinking from your mouth?

Can we carry on on the basis of phrases you introduce or do you just want to change the parameters every time you post?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Every EU country had the right to seek their own supply, every EU country chose for political purposes not to, they wanted to show support for the project. That’s great. My mum, Mr Ski’s mum, they are vaccinated and if exposed to Covid are now unlikely to die from it. If they lived in the EU chances are they would not be vaccinated and would be at a significant risk of death if they got it. You can deny that all you like, doesn’t make it so.

EU put pressure on countries not to seek their own supplies, this came out when the EU fell out with Astrazeneca over supply levels, insisting they should have some of the UK's supply, before backing down.

A few weeks after the UK invested, AZ reached an agreement with a group known as the 'Inclusive Vaccine Alliance' (Germany, Holland, France and Italy) based on the UK agreement, but negotiations were handed over to the EU, because they/Germany insisted that the alliance could not formalise the deal, resulting in over 2 months of further talks, meaning the EU signed a deal 3 months after the UK.

Ironically, the alliance had been born out of a feeling that the Commission could not be trusted to move quickly enough, AZ announced they had reached an agreement with the alliance on the 13th June, the EU announced they had finally got around to signing the agreement on the 27th Aug.

This gave AZ an extra three months to sort out manufacturing and supply problems associated with the UK contract, so the EU have had to wait until they have done the same at their Belgium site, the main base for supplying the EU, and where the problem was.

Let's not forget, whilst they were throwing their toys out of their pram, they imposed Covid vaccine controls on the Irish border, without even discussing it first with the Irish & the UK governments, before back paddling at high speed when it blow up in their faces. Typical bullying tactics.

Worse is Merkel and Macron, in order to attempt to save face for the EU rubbished the Astra Zeneca vaccine and now Germans and French people are turning it down, costing even more lives.

Indeed, and which has also influenced some other EU sates to be wary of it, it's reported that millions, some 80%, of AZ doses are sitting unused in the bloc.

This is plain to see and non-partisan. For sure they will be many negative aspects to leaving the EU, all divorces are costly, but to deny the EU fucked vaccine procurement when the U.K. didn’t is just silly.

Spot on.

 

[BobDavis]

No it wouldn't. You talked of putting vaccine in people's arms. Putting vaccine in people's arms. Do you understand what you say or do the words bubble unthinking from your mouth?

In the arm & not in the bum cheek is where the Covid vaccine goes. Explain how putting it in those actual terms is political. You still have not explained as I asked you to.

It will now be a while before I answer your response Pickers. I am going for a shit & a shower. Don’t think for one moment I have bailed out of our exchange.

 

[Pickman's model]

In the arm & not in the bum cheek is where the Covid vaccine goes. Explain how putting it in those actual terms is political. You still have not explained as I asked you to.

It will now be a while before I answer your response Pickers. I am going for a shit & a shower. Don’t think for one moment I have bailed out of our exchange.

we were talking using your phrase about putting vaccine into people's arms. That is, we were talking about the governmental programme for vaccination. Which is political as all government actions are political. If you no longer want to to talk about that but enquire how your participation in a political scheme is political then we can do. But I'm not sure what the point is.

 

[dessiato]

I can understand why the op posted this & I am sympathetic. I will admit I was in denial after the ref. I thought no this just is not going to happen. This is just so wasteful & pointless. Then came the years of political turmoil & It looked possibly it might not happen. In the end though I thought it probably would because that is what people voted for.

All the arguments like possibly void referendum due to it being legally only advisory & so on could not get away from that people had voted to leave in a binary vote. People I knew who voted leave. I felt their quiet anger while they thought their vote might be denied. Then the general election came & most people I knew said they thought Johnson was a wanker but they were voting Tory just to get things sorted. I knew it was lost then & I let it go. All the anger went & now I am going with it. Despite my love of going to our near European neighbours I am only ever going to go over there on camping trips.

I was born in this country. I will die here & English is the only language I speak more than a few words of so I need to stop pretending I am as European as I thought I was. The op needs to let brexit go & concentrate how they can do what they want to do with things as they are now. For me politically the most important thing is to right the wrongs that exist in this country.

Brexit has fucked me over big time. I have lived and traveled extensively in the EU. My work depends to a large extent on having the freedom to move and live in the EU. All this has gone. My current and future life, the life of my wife, is now pretty much fucked.

I am looking at, and studying for, becoming a Spanish citizenship. Just so I can live how I have for the vast majority of my life.

I am now and always will be European.

It is very hard to not be very angry with the Brexit voters.

 

[andysays]

It was me that started that other thread. There is more than one anti Brexit poster on here.

In that case, I offer my apologies to MrSki, this is the only not in the least passive aggressive thread about Brexit you've started.

As a thick and probably racist Leave supporter, all these Remainers look the same to me.

 

[Idris2002]

If 2016 led to a hard brexit, it was partly because remainers insisted on the fantasy of overturning the vote, instead of fighting for the only real option they had, which was to ensure that leave took the form of "divorce with bed rights" with the option of possibly rejoining ten or twenty years down the line.

 

[BobDavis]

we were talking using your phrase about putting vaccine into people's arms. That is, we were talking about the governmental programme for vaccination. Which is political as all government actions are political. If you no longer want to to talk about that but enquire how your participation in a political scheme is political then we can do. But I'm not sure what the point is.

You can make the logical point that any action by any government national or supranational as in EU is political but do not try to pretend that getting vaccinated is political in itself for the individual concerned. I certainly did not see it that way. All that matters is for governments to organise getting their populations vaccinated. In their arms or whatever part of the body it is decided to inject it into.

Having fairly bad Covid was the most painful horrible physiologically damaging 2 weeks of my life. It has taken me weeks to fully recover & I did thankfully recover when plenty suffer long term effects & plenty do not survive. All that matters here is to get people vaccinated asap. There was no politics at the vaccination centre I went to. Just people organised & coordinated getting the job done & doing it brilliantly well pushing people through at a rate of knots.

You can call our government‘s vaccination programme a political success & the EU’s a political failure or you can call it just success & failure but all that matters is getting the vaccines into peoples arms soonest because that is where the needle goes. In the arm.

 

[Aladdin]

Well, there's one benefit no one can deny, we were able to secure covid vaccines far quicker outside the fucked up bureaucracy of the EU.

Oh, and how they throw their toys out of their pram over that, bless them.

Ye might pass a few over to Ireland then.

Oh I forgot... ye dont share life saving resources with the Irish....... like food and that...
Or potatoes....

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Are we really going the road of the P&P section become clogged by spam? This thread adds fuck all, everyone knows it adds fuck all and that every word on it is already covered by other threads.

Still, if the mods are happy to see it become a message board extension of FBPE Twitter then so be it....

 

[Crispy]

Nobody voted Brexit because they thought it would be choirs of angels after two months. It's large scale political change. You can't score points when it's only just started.

 

[BobDavis]

If 2016 led to a hard brexit, it was partly because remainers insisted on the fantasy of overturning the vote, instead of fighting for the only real option they had, which was to ensure that leave took the form of "divorce with bed rights" with the option of possibly rejoining ten or twenty years down the line.

With hindsight I absolutely agree. Theresa May was at first offered the deal that Johnson as prime minister accepted & rejected it as it put a border down the Irish Sea & Johnson at the time agreed. The deal voted for & rejected would have effectively kept us in the single market/customs union forever. Some Labour MPs ie Stephen Kinnock argued unsuccessfully that Labour should support Theresa May‘s deal as it made the inevitable brexit as soft as possible. It would have been a difficult call for many Labour MPs to vote with the Tories though.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Ye might pass a few over to Ireland then.

Oh I forgot... ye dont share life saving resources with the Irish....... like food and that...
Or potatoes....

That's a bit below the belt.

At some point we will have a supply that outstrips the speed at which they can be delivered into arms, at which point it has been suggested that Ireland receives any excess first.

In the meantime Ireland could ask the likes of Germany & France for some of the millions of unused doses they are sitting on.

 

[brogdale]

Nobody voted Brexit because they thought it would be choirs of angels after two months. It's large scale political change. You can't score points when it's only just started.

There's obvious truth in what you say, but when those who presume to govern us have made so many definitive statements about the situation immediately following the act of withdrawal (eg. there will be no disruption to our trade flows etc.) you can hardly expect those who disagree with the re-arrangement to remain silent.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

 

[Aladdin]

That's a bit below the belt.

At some point we will have a supply that outstrips the speed at which they can be delivered into arms, at which point it has been suggested that Ireland receives any excess first.

In the meantime Ireland could ask the likes of Germany & France for some of the millions of unused doses they are sitting on.

Below the belt?
No I dont think it was actually. It also was nor personal cupid_stunt

 

[Smokeandsteam]