A thank you to Brexiteers.

[AmateurAgitator]

Now we've got the EU off our backs it's time to deal with our own British capitalists and get them off our backs. Time to build up something that can overthrow the British ruling class and share power and all resources, property and land equally among us, that will benefit us more than being in or out of the EU. We must seize what the rich have for our own collective benefit. It may seem impossible but no one ever got anywhere by giving up in the first place.

Capitalism has less and less to offer us and is more and more of a problem. It is destroying the environment. It has to go and the sooner the better.

That's how I see things anyway.

 

[Pickman's model]

You can make the logical point that any action by any government national or supranational as in EU is political but do not try to pretend that getting vaccinated is political in itself for the individual concerned. I certainly did not see it that way. All that matters is for governments to organise getting their populations vaccinated. In their arms or whatever part of the body it is decided to inject it into.

Having fairly bad Covid was the most painful horrible physiologically damaging 2 weeks of my life. It has taken me weeks to fully recover & I did thankfully recover when plenty suffer long term effects & plenty do not survive. All that matters here is to get people vaccinated asap. There was no politics at the vaccination centre I went to. Just people organised & coordinated getting the job done & doing it brilliantly well pushing people through at a rate of knots.

You can call our government‘s vaccination programme a political success & the EU’s a political failure or you can call it just success & failure but all that matters is getting the vaccines into peoples arms soonest because that is where the needle goes. In the arm.

There were plenty of politics involved in getting you the vaccine. But you simply won't see them. Of course it's political for the individual concerned - none of this process happens outside the polis, the state, from the procurement process to the decision who gets it first to the organisation of the vaccination in health centres and on and on. None of it is apolitical. Your initial stance was the entire thing can exist outside politics - it can't, as a glance at the way the vaccines were cleared here shows. As the government's triumphal vaccine nationalism illustrates. With that claim knocked down you changed the parameters to oh but my participation not a political act, certainly didn't feel like it. but it is, for reasons including accceptance or rejection of the vaccine has been given political meaning by the government and by anti-vaxxers. I wish you could keep your story straight about what all that matters is, because it changes from post to post

 

[mauvais]

Now we've got the EU off our backs it's time to deal with our own British capitalists and get them off our backs. Time to build up something that can overthrow the British ruling class and share power and all resources, property and land equally among us, that will benefit us more than being in or out of the EU. We must seize what the rich have for our own collective benefit. It may seem impossible but no one ever got anywhere by giving up in the first place.

Capitalism has less and less to offer us and is more and more of a problem. It is destroying the environment. It has to go and the sooner the better.

That's how I see things anyway.

As I've been saying for several years, the British capitalists were the most dominant in our affairs and now we have further empowered them. We may have 'got the EU off our backs' (except we haven't because global capital) but it offers no meaningful change whatsoever, eclipsed as it is by our own masters. A theoretical future opportunity is worth fuck all if you can't exploit it.

Meanwhile there is a hopelessly weak public with less appetite than ever for what you describe; there is major support for where we find ourselves, apparently on a road to fascism to boot, and we've never been further from collectivism. Even national disaster doesn't change anything.

The good news is it's too late anyway and soon we'll all be dead. Happy Monday!

 

[krtek a houby]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with, on balance and after considering all the issues, believing that the UK should be a member of the EU - there is however, as should by now be astonishingly apparent to these political geniuses, a great deal wrong with slagging off everyone who doesn't agree with your analysis as a thick racist and attempting to overturn the result of a referendum because you think that other people just aren't bright enough to understand the issues in the way you do...

How are those #FBPE tags working out for you...?

After nearly 5 years, it's a contentious topic that often feels like it will run on forever. As have admitted in the last few years, there was certainly shock and disbelief on my part and said things that I regret. It was dismissive, patronising and emotional. Got it wrong. Very wrong.

Have come to accept the result and was bouyed up when it sunk in that going it alone for the UK, would also mean going alone for Scotland and a 32 county Republic.

As for the "thick/racist" commentary, those particular words only seem to crop up, these days, as examples from those urbanites who embraced the result from the get go. And of course, it's completely understandable that they were pissed off with such comments.

As far as can see, nobody here thinks that brexiteers are thick and/or racist.

Anyways. No beef intended, genuinely hope it works out for everyone. Except the politicians who capitalized on the whole messy issue.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

As I've been saying for several years, the British capitalists were the most dominant in our affairs and now we have further empowered them. We may have 'got the EU off our backs' (except we haven't because global capital) but it offers no meaningful change whatsoever, eclipsed as it is by our own masters. A theoretical future opportunity is worth fuck all if you can't exploit it.

Meanwhile there is a hopelessly weak public with less appetite than ever for what you describe; there is major support for where we find ourselves, apparently on a road to fascism to boot, and we've never been further from collectivism. Even national disaster doesn't change anything.

The good news is it's too late anyway and soon we'll all be dead. Happy Monday!

Well nothing is ever going to be achieved with that attitude. I am well aware of the challenges that face us but it's better to try than to not bother.

 

[NoXion]

Well nothing is ever going to be achieved with that attitude. I am well aware of the challenges that face us but it's better to try than to not bother.

The worst thing is that it becomes a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. If you never even bother trying to make a positive difference because you think there are too many fick racists about, then of course you're not going to see anything positive happen, because you've already blinded yourself with pessimism.

 

[mauvais]

Well nothing is ever going to be achieved with that attitude. I am well aware of the challenges that face us but it's better to try than to not bother.

Oh no, sorry! And we were so close to bringing about fully automated luxury communism too, before I brought the whole team's morale down with my negative tone. I hope my 360 performance review can be deferred until after the seas rise and consume us all.

 

[NoXion]

Oh no, sorry! And we were so close to bringing about fully automated luxury communism too, before I brought the whole team's morale down with my negative tone. I hope my 360 performance review can be deferred until after the seas rise and consume us all.

If we're all doomed, why do you even bother?

 

[mauvais]

If we're all doomed, why do you even bother?

Bother doing what?

 

[Aladdin]

That's a bit below the belt.

At some point we will have a supply that outstrips the speed at which they can be delivered into arms, at which point it has been suggested that Ireland receives any excess first.

In the meantime Ireland could ask the likes of Germany & France for some of the millions of unused doses they are sitting on.

Sorry.
Cabin fever setting in here. Indoors 12 months today. Virus figures here are second highest in the country. And the oldies in the house are cracking up.
Plus no vaccines for his week here. And the surgery the parents were due to attend for their vaccine has had to shut due to outbreak of covid.
Not good.

 

[NoXion]

Bother doing what?

This. Political shit in general. Do you think a better world is possible or not? Because if not then there are much more entertaining ways of spending one's limited time on this Earth.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sorry.
Cabin fever setting in here. Indoors 12 months today. Virus figures here are second highest in the country. And the oldies in the house are cracking up.
Plus no vaccines for his week here. And the surgery the parents were due to attend for their vaccine has had to shut due to outbreak of covid.
Not good.

Happy anniversary

 

[Aladdin]

Happy anniversary

Thanks.

I'm baking a cake.

 

[editor]

Every EU country had the right to seek their own supply, every EU country chose for political purposes not to, they wanted to show support for the project. That’s great. My mum, Mr Ski’s mum, they are vaccinated and if exposed to Covid are now unlikely to die from it. If they lived in the EU chances are they would not be vaccinated and would be at a significant risk of death if they got it. You can deny that all you like, doesn’t make it so.

No matter how many times you repeat this lie it won't make it the truth.

Vaccine approval isn’t quicker because of Brexit - Full Fact

The MHRA could have given the Pfizer vaccine the same emergency approval when the UK was in the EU.

fullfact.org

UK vaccine approval: Did Brexit speed up the process?

There have been claims that Brexit allowed the UK to approve a vaccine quicker than the EU, but is that correct?

www.bbc.co.uk

Brexit Britain's victory over the EU on Covid vaccination is not what it seems | Jean Quatremer

The bloc’s joint vaccines strategy – far from being a fiasco – is delivering a better outcome than the UK’s, says Jean Quatremer, Brussels correspondent of Libération

www.theguardian.com

The EU’s vaccine response has not made the case for Brexit

Being outside the bloc is sure to help the UK do a few things better

www.ft.com

 

[mauvais]

This. Political shit in general. Do you think a better world is possible or not? Because if not then there are much more entertaining ways of spending one's limited time on this Earth.

I think a significantly better world is probably not possible now, no - at least not in my lifetime and not without massive, uncontrolled world-changing events. As for why, passes the time doesn't it. Right now I could be talking to you about the futility of existence or I could be reviewing someone's pull request.

 

[Pickman's model]

If we're all doomed, why do you even bother?

Passes the time

 

[brogdale]

Passes the time

It's being so cheerful that keeps me going.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

No matter how many times you repeat this lie it won't make it the truth.

Vaccine approval isn’t quicker because of Brexit - Full Fact

The MHRA could have given the Pfizer vaccine the same emergency approval when the UK was in the EU.

fullfact.org

UK vaccine approval: Did Brexit speed up the process?

There have been claims that Brexit allowed the UK to approve a vaccine quicker than the EU, but is that correct?

www.bbc.co.uk

Brexit Britain's victory over the EU on Covid vaccination is not what it seems | Jean Quatremer

The bloc’s joint vaccines strategy – far from being a fiasco – is delivering a better outcome than the UK’s, says Jean Quatremer, Brussels correspondent of Libération

www.theguardian.com

The EU’s vaccine response has not made the case for Brexit

Being outside the bloc is sure to help the UK do a few things better

www.ft.com

Where is the lie?
Did the UK join the EU's vaccine procurement group? No.
Did every single EU country join? Yes.
As a result of relying on the EU to sort out the procurement, was there a delay in the vaccine rollout for those countries? Yes.
Why did the UK not join the EU's vaccine procurement group? Because the UK had left the EU.

These are simple facts, you can deny it all you like, just makes you look foolish and turns folk off from listening to your legitimate concerns about the bad aspects of leaving the EU.

 

[muscovyduck]

I remember agreeing with the theory of the #lexit campaign (as it was known at the time), voting remain anyway because I was scared, and pretty much immediately regretting it seeing how vicious other remain voters got. What I have noticed over the years in between is that remain voters have been a lot more hostile to me for having dual citizenship that leave voters have been. As in to the extent that I once left a work do crying because I turned up with euros, accidentally got them out and was completely ostracised. It made fuck all sense but I presume it came from a place of extremely misguided jealousy. I can recognise it's a minority of remain voters who act like this. But then that same minority have the nerve to call me racist?

My benefit to brexit is that if I ever become a strain on state resources it's a lot less likely a social worker's gonna try and send me home to a country I'm not from, as has been attempted before. Legally nothing's changed (I assume) but the way these people see the world has.

 

[BobDavis]

There were plenty of politics involved in getting you the vaccine. But you simply won't see them. Of course it's political for the individual concerned - none of this process happens outside the polis, the state, from the procurement process to the decision who gets it first to the organisation of the vaccination in health centres and on and on. None of it is apolitical. Your initial stance was the entire thing can exist outside politics - it can't, as a glance at the way the vaccines were cleared here shows. As the government's triumphal vaccine nationalism illustrates. With that claim knocked down you changed the parameters to oh but my participation not a political act, certainly didn't feel like it. but it is, for reasons including accceptance or rejection of the vaccine has been given political meaning by the government and by anti-vaxxers. I wish you could keep your story straight about what all that matters is, because it changes from post to post

I was posting how I viewed It. You & all other posters are free to disagree. My “story“ does not change just because you beg to differ. I fail to see how you pick up on ”getting it into people’s” arms as different from “taking the vaccine” or “being vaccinated”. You are free to be an anti Vaxxer or whatever. I have no issue with anybody who is reluctant to get vaccinated for whatever reason. If they speak to me I will suggest they get vaccinated but it is their choice. I see vaccination as a force for good in the world.

Do you seriously think that most people queuing up to get vaccinated anywhere in the world will see their actions as political ? I think most would see it as life saving. Of course any government will make political capital out of policy that appears to be working well. The distasteful populist regime we have in power right now will make distasteful populist political capital out of it obviously.

 

[cupid_stunt]

No matter how many times you repeat this lie it won't make it the truth.

Vaccine approval isn’t quicker because of Brexit - Full Fact

The MHRA could have given the Pfizer vaccine the same emergency approval when the UK was in the EU.

fullfact.org

UK vaccine approval: Did Brexit speed up the process?

There have been claims that Brexit allowed the UK to approve a vaccine quicker than the EU, but is that correct?

www.bbc.co.uk

Brexit Britain's victory over the EU on Covid vaccination is not what it seems | Jean Quatremer

The bloc’s joint vaccines strategy – far from being a fiasco – is delivering a better outcome than the UK’s, says Jean Quatremer, Brussels correspondent of Libération

www.theguardian.com

The EU’s vaccine response has not made the case for Brexit

Being outside the bloc is sure to help the UK do a few things better

www.ft.com

The first two links are concerning approval, whereas the discussion has been about procurement, two very different things.

The next one is much the same, but introduces various 'strawmen', such as them 'refusing to exempt laboratories from civil liability', which is true, liability remains with the companies, but they agreed that EU states would indemnify the manufacturer for liabilities incurred under certain conditions, so they would pick up the bill if anything goes wrong anyway, much like the UK agreed, just in a slightly different way.

There's no getting around the fact that the 'Inclusive Vaccine Alliance' (Germany, Holland, France and Italy) had reached the agreement with AZ on the 13th June, for 300-400 million doses for all EU countries, then the EU took over and didn't get around to signing the deal until the 27th Aug., and there was no different in price, as AZ is providing it at cost to all countries during the pandemic.

Sure, we may have paid a bit more for the pfizer one, not sure as I can't find that information, but at the end of the day, anything extra paid will be more than compensated by savings in hospital admissions & deaths, by getting it into people far quicker.

 

[editor]

Where is the lie?
Did the UK join the EU's vaccine procurement group? No.
Did every single EU country join? Yes.
As a result of relying on the EU to sort out the procurement, was there a delay in the vaccine rollout for those countries? Yes.
Why did the UK not join the EU's vaccine procurement group? Because the UK had left the EU.

These are simple facts, you can deny it all you like, just makes you look foolish and turns folk off from listening to your legitimate concerns about the bad aspects of leaving the EU.

Damn those stupid newspapers and writers all getting their facts wrong.

And this is very much worth a read;

Brexit Britain's victory over the EU on Covid vaccination is not what it seems | Jean Quatremer

The bloc’s joint vaccines strategy – far from being a fiasco – is delivering a better outcome than the UK’s, says Jean Quatremer, Brussels correspondent of Libération

www.theguardian.com

 

[Pickman's model]

I was posting how I viewed It. You & all other posters are free to disagree. My “story“ does not change just because you beg to differ. I fail to see how you pick up on ”getting it into people’s” arms as different from “taking the vaccine” or “being vaccinated”. You are free to be an anti Vaxxer or whatever. I have no issue with anybody who is reluctant to get vaccinated for whatever reason. If they speak to me I will suggest they get vaccinated but it is their choice. I see vaccination as a force for good in the world.

Do you seriously think that most people queuing up to get vaccinated anywhere in the world will see their actions as political ? I think most would see it as life saving. Of course any government will make political capital out of policy that appears to be working well. The distasteful populist regime we have in power right now will make distasteful populist political capital out of it obviously.

putting needles/vaccine into people's arms is giving the vaccine. i thought that that was quite obvious. so it is clearly different from receiving the vaccine or from being vaccinated.

does a political act need to be recognised as such by the actors to be political? i think not. i suggest most political acts aren't seen as political by at least some of the actors - but this does not render them any less political. the way this issue has been politicised by the government, the way it has been politicised by the 'loons, the way that the distribution of vaccines has been organised - all these are political issues, and by taking part and therefore involving yourself in the government plan it's hard to see participation as apolitical. political acts can be life saving, they don't have to result in deaths.

 

[BobDavis]

Separate the vaccine from the politics & you just have the vaccine where it should be going into people’s arms. The rate at which that can be achieved is the how the success of any country’s vaccination programme can be measured.

Edited to add this post was actually a response to editor‘s post but equally it could be a response to yours Pickmans.

 

[Pickman's model]

Separate the vaccine from the politics & you just have the vaccine where it should be going into people’s arms. The rate at which that can be achieved is the how the success of any country’s vaccination programme can be measured.

and obvs the organisation of this is utterly apolitical, the prioritising is utterly apolitical, the decision to brand the various vaccines safe in an accelerated way was apolitical

ffs catch yourself on - 'separate the vaccine from the politics' - can't be done. and then your 'the rate at which that can be achieved is how trhe success can be measured'. really? like every country has equal access to vaccines and no neighbours who are unwilling to help.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Damn those stupid newspapers and writers all getting their facts wrong.

And this is very much worth a read;

Brexit Britain's victory over the EU on Covid vaccination is not what it seems | Jean Quatremer

The bloc’s joint vaccines strategy – far from being a fiasco – is delivering a better outcome than the UK’s, says Jean Quatremer, Brussels correspondent of Libération

www.theguardian.com

I agree with some of that. However, the UK's gamble on prioritising first jab does appear to be paying off. Agree that it's too early to tell for definite, but the first results are very encouraging, showing a high level of protection, even for the very old, from just one jab.

Covid-19 news: One dose of Pfizer vaccine greatly reduced transmission

First real world covid-19 vaccine studies show 'spectacular' results

 

[cupid_stunt]

Damn those stupid newspapers and writers all getting their facts wrong.

And this is very much worth a read;

Brexit Britain's victory over the EU on Covid vaccination is not what it seems | Jean Quatremer

The bloc’s joint vaccines strategy – far from being a fiasco – is delivering a better outcome than the UK’s, says Jean Quatremer, Brussels correspondent of Libération

www.theguardian.com

I have, and it's full of 'strawmen', one of which I covered in my last post, here's another example.

But, and there’s a very big but, the UK’s “success” is a really an illusion: because to be fully effective, the vaccine requires two doses. And only 0.80% of the UK population has received both shots, less than that of France (0.92%), and a long way behind Denmark, which has 2.87% of its population fully vaccinated.

It's a nonsense, because both vaccines have been demonstrated to be highly effective after a single dose, massively reducing serious cases, hospital admissions and deaths.

Rollout of the Pfizer BioNTech and Oxford AstraZeneca vaccines has led to a substantial fall in severe covid-19 cases requiring hospital admission in Scotland, suggest the results of the first study to report on the impact of the UK’s vaccination strategy.1

The results, available as a preprint, showed that four weeks after the first doses of the Pfizer BioNTech and Oxford AstraZeneca vaccines were administered the risk of hospitalisation from covid-19 fell by up to 85% (95% confidence interval 76 to 91) and 94% (95% CI 73 to 99), respectively.

BMJ LINK

In addition the AZ vaccine has been proved to be more effective with a gap of 12 weeks between doses, and there's no evidence to suggest the same will not apply with the pfizer one, as efficacy doesn't suddenly drop off after a few weeks.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Snap!

 

[Pickman's model]

In addition the AZ vaccine has been proved to be more effective with a gap of 12 weeks between doses, and there's no evidence to suggest the same will not apply with the pfizer one, as efficacy doesn't suddenly drop off after a few weeks.

'there's no evidence for' is unsurprising being as no one yet has had 12 weeks between doses of pfizer. let's hope we don't find a load of evidence.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Damn those stupid newspapers and writers all getting their facts wrong.

No, as Cupid rightly pointed out to you, which you have chosen to ignore as it doesn't suit your agenda, we are talking about vaccine procurement and you have waded in with regulatory approval and are seeking to conflate the two. Shallow as a worm's grave on this.