A thank you to Brexiteers.

[andysays]

So that's plenty of small bands/roadies/band crew priced out of the picture because of shitty fucking Brexit. Any thoughts about them?

Since you're asking for concrete examples with figures from real life, perhaps you could provide similar for the various claims you've made about how Brexit and Brexit alone is making the difference between tours being economical or not.

Or if you're unable or unwilling to do this yourself (perfectly reasonably, TBH), perhaps you could stop asking others to do similar.

 

[Shechemite]

Learn. Listen. Learn. Humble pie. Listen. Learn.

Well that’s not going to happen

 

[editor]

My thoughts? If someone can't find what appears to be a maximum of £3.65 a week then perhaps they should consider a different career.

Small band tours of Europe are such a niche industry that their plight shouldn't really keep trashing threads across the boards, we get it that you're pissed off, we heard you the first time, but perhaps it is time to face the reality of the situation and start working on how you can make it happen, if that is what you really want to do and you aren't just up for a moan.

Yeah. Fuck the musicians, the road crews, the small bands and their livelihoods. And the rest of the non-corporate arts industry too. They're well worth throwing under the bus in exchange for the glories of Brexit if they can't come up with the extra cash. In fact, they should follow your advice and give up altogether.

And imagine someone going on and on about it on a website which has an independent /non corporate ethos at its very core!

 

[editor]

Since you're asking for concrete examples with figures from real life, perhaps you could provide similar for the various claims you've made about how Brexit and Brexit alone is making the difference between tours being economical or not.

Or if you're unable or unwilling to do this yourself (perfectly reasonably, TBH), perhaps you could stop asking others to do similar.

If you've missed all the links and examples that have been posted up before, I can't be arsed to repeat them again, sorry.

But you could start here:

New Brexit Deal Does Nothing for Musicians says MU

New Brexit Deal published today (Thursday 17 October) does not deal with issues for musicians which have been pointed out by the MU and others.

musiciansunion.org.uk

Tours that happen beyond the EU are always very costly and time-consuming to put together, not least because of the complex visa, carnet and paperwork requirements. European touring has been much easier – with the ability to tour to 27 European countries without any need for visas or work permits for musicians or carnets (temporary export licenses) for instruments.

Many of our members visit several European countries over the course of a week, often with very little notice, and do this on a regular basis. Anything that hampers their ability to do this is potentially catastrophic for our members’ careers.

This new deal doesn’t deal with any of the issues musicians will face. Indeed, because the commitment to the ‘single customs territory’ has been removed this would appear to confirm that goods will need to be checked at borders meaning that this deal could be even more damaging than the previous one brought forward by Theresa May.

The reality of Brexit to Musicians - Scanner

The reality and challenges of trying to play one show in Spain with Brexit forcing your hand

scannerdot.com

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Yeah. Fuck the musicians, the road crews, the small bands and their livelihoods. And the rest of the non-corporate arts industry too. They're well worth throwing under the bus in exchange for the glories of Brexit if they can't come up with the extra cash. In fact, they should follow your advice and give up altogether.

And imagine someone going on and on about it on a website which has an independent /non corporate ethos at its very core!

Seriously man, if you can't come up with £3.65 a week then yes, you really should give up as even the shonkiest hobbyists can pull in more than that.

 

[The39thStep]

If only we had a dedicated thread about travelling musicians and Brexit

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

If you've missed all the links and examples that have been posted up before, I can't be arsed to repeat them again, sorry.

But you could start here:



"Many of our members visit several European countries over the course of a week, often with very little notice,"

Bands normally book European gigs months or years in advance.

Which is it? Schrodinger's gig?

 

[andysays]

If you've missed all the links and examples that have been posted up before, I can't be arsed to repeat them again, sorry.

But you could start here:

New Brexit Deal Does Nothing for Musicians says MU

New Brexit Deal published today (Thursday 17 October) does not deal with issues for musicians which have been pointed out by the MU and others.

musiciansunion.org.uk

The reality of Brexit to Musicians - Scanner

The reality and challenges of trying to play one show in Spain with Brexit forcing your hand

scannerdot.com

You've just asked Bahnhof Strasse to post detailed examples from their own life experience, yet you refuse to post anything similar about your own personal details.

While I would be genuinely interested in seeing a financial breakdown demonstrating how a European tour which made money pre-Brexit would now be unviable, I completely understand why you wouldn't want to post such info here.

But if you're not prepared to do that, you can't expect everyone to simply accept your claim at face value, given how strong your opinions are about Brexit generally.

And you certainly can't expect others to post personal info to back up their claims if you're not prepared to do it yourself. No one can.

 

[editor]

Which is it? Schrodinger's gig?

I'm sorry if you don't understand the business well enough.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I'm sorry if you don't understand the business well enough.

 

[editor]

You've just asked Bahnhof Strasse to post detailed examples from their own life experience, yet you refuse to post anything similar about your own personal details.

While I would be genuinely interested in seeing a financial breakdown demonstrating how a European tour which made money pre-Brexit would now be unviable, I completely understand why you wouldn't want to post such info here.

But if you're not prepared to do that, you can't expect everyone to simply accept your claim at face value, given how strong your opinions are about Brexit generally.

And you certainly can't expect others to post personal info to back up their claims if you're not prepared to do it yourself. No one can.

My personal details are simply this: for the first time in 5 years my band has zero European dates lined up. Not one.

Covid clearly killed off a huge part of that but Brexit is putting in the final boot with the uncertainly about costs/visas/carnets meaning that both bands and venues are extremely reluctant to start planning anything.

But this has already been well documented so I don't know why you need my particular experience.

 

[editor]

Seriously man, if you can't come up with £3.65 a week then yes, you really should give up as even the shonkiest hobbyists can pull in more than that.

Could you produce your time/costs workings for this please. Thanks.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

My personal details are simply this: for the first time in 5 years my band has zero European dates lined up. Not one.

Covid clearly killed off a huge part of that but Brexit is putting in the final boot with the uncertainly about costs/visas/carnets meaning that both bands and venues are extremely reluctant to start planning anything.

But this has already been well documented so I don't know why you need my particular experience.

Your band has US tours line dup though, postponed to 2022 due to Covid. You need costs/visas/carnets* for there, so clearly not as impossible as you make out.

or amy I not understanding the business well enough?





* have previously posted how you, your band DO NOT NEED a Carnet for touring Europe. But don't let helpful advice get through for fear of spoiling a good rant.

 

[editor]

Your band has US tours line dup though, postponed to 2022 due to Covid. You need costs/visas/carnets* for there, so clearly not as impossible as you make out.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Could you produce your time/costs workings for this please. Thanks.

I might need kabbes to help here, as I might run out of fingers and toes...

I we have been applying for talent visas for them to stay out in the EU for much longer, each so far has been granted 24 months.

You didn't ask for costs and time, the real life examples I have the countries we have done this with are France, Sweden, Italy and Germany, the cost varied between £130 and £380.

Two years = 104 weeks.

£380 ÷ 104 = £3.65 a week

Phew, that grade C grade GCSE came good in the end

 

[Smokeandsteam]

You must be imagining it, it was only a blip and its already 'corrected itself' ok.

We’ve already had the debate on what the ONS report actually says about exports and imports and what the Guardian report on it says. Scroll back on the thread. By the way the bit about ‘correcting itself’ is actually from the latter. Maybe, it’s time remainers now launch an investigation into the Guardian and whether they are secret brexiteers??

 

[Spymaster]

I might need kabbes to help here, as I might run out of fingers and toes...






Two years = 104 weeks.

£380 ÷ 104 = £3.65 a week

Phew, that grade C grade GCSE came good in the end

At the end of the day certain groups will undoubtedly be inconvenienced to some degree and it's also going to cost others a few quid. That was always going to be the case. The question is, should the discomfort of some, overide the wishes of the majority who see other benefits? With that in mind, most people would probably consider the perceived plight of the handful of hobby musicians who'll be affected, somewhere on a par with that of British biscuit designers. Unfortunate, but of negligible consequence in the greater scheme of things.

 

[gosub]

At the end of the day certain groups will undoubtedly be inconvenienced to some degree and it's also going to cost others a few quid. That was always going to be the case. The question is, should the discomfort of some, overide the wishes of the majority who see other benefits? With that in mind, most people would probably consider the perceived plight of a handful of hobby musicians somewhere on a par with that of British biscuit designers. Unfortunate, but of negligible consequence in the greater scheme of things.

Negligible consequence! May all your biscuits end up at the bottom of your tea. Some things are important

 

[andysays]

My personal details are simply this: for the first time in 5 years my band has zero European dates lined up. Not one.

Covid clearly killed off a huge part of that but Brexit is putting in the final boot with the uncertainly about costs/visas/carnets meaning that both bands and venues are extremely reluctant to start planning anything.

But this has already been well documented so I don't know why you need my particular experience.

That's nowhere near being a financial breakdown demonstrating how a tour which was viable pre-Brexit becomes uneconomic post-Brexit, which is the claim which has repeatedly been made by you and others, but which no one has actually been prepared to back up.

It's a shame that discussion on this issue has become so bad tempered and so personalised, but it appears to me that a great deal of the responsibility for that is yours.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

At the end of the day certain groups will undoubtedly be inconvenienced to some degree and it's also going to cost others a few quid. That was always going to be the case. The question is, should the discomfort of some, overide the wishes of the majority who see other benefits? With that in mind, most people would probably consider the perceived plight of the handful of hobby musicians who'll be affected, somewhere on a par with that of British biscuit designers. Unfortunate, but of negligible consequence in the greater scheme of things.

Exactly, and whether it is worth it or not will always be a personal thing, but the endless whinging about it won't change a thing, so it really is time to put on the big boy pants and deal with the reality of the situation. I really did receive a five grand bike from Germany last week, (I'm sure you can't wait to pop round and have a ride ), the manufacturer Canyon halted deliveries in early January to asses the new situation, a situation jumped on by some as early proof of the sky falling in of course. After two weeks they had sorted it, so they have a price on their website in GBP that you pay and your bike gets delivered. None of the nonsense from that dickhead with his bike from Poland. It's just how professional people go about their business.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

At the end of the day certain groups will undoubtedly be inconvenienced to some degree and it's also going to cost others a few quid. That was always going to be the case. The question is, should the discomfort of some, overide the wishes of the majority who see other benefits? With that in mind, most people would probably consider the perceived plight of the handful of hobby musicians who'll be affected, somewhere on a par with that of British biscuit designers. Unfortunate, but of negligible consequence in the greater scheme of things.

What majority are you talking about here?

The 17-odd million who voted for Brexit five years ago with no definition whatever as to what that Brexit might entail, in fact with strong words from the pro-brexit campaigners that exactly this kind of thing would not happen?

Or is it perhaps the 12-odd million who voted tory in the last election? They can be said to be more capable of knowing what they were voting for, but 12-odd million out of about 52 million adults is not in any sense a majority, either of the absolute numbers of people or even just from those who voted.

 

[Spymaster]

What majority are you talking about here?

The 17-odd million who voted for Brexit five years ago with no definition whatever as to what that Brexit might entail ...

Yes. Them, and those of us who voted remain but have since realised the error of our ways.

 

[Maggot]

If it wasn’t for a pesky global pandemic that has closed the hospitality sector, a direct correlation with imports and the fact that the small additional dip due to new regulations had already corrected itself by February Badgers and the Guardian would have found their smoking gun.

Next....

75% drop in exports is a small additional dip.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes. Them, and those of us who voted remain but have since realised the error of our ways.

Right, so that's absurd. 'the majority' didn't vote for this Brexit, and the various fuck-ups of this Brexit, the thing that's actually happened, cannot just be fobbed off as 'tough shit, the majority wants it'. You cannot say that.

Fucking hell. A whole bunch of urbs acting as apologists for the tory government.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

75% drop in exports is a small additional dip.

Even The Guardian doesn't claim that.

Next...

 

[Smokeandsteam]

the thing that's actually happened

What, precisely, has happened?

 

[Spymaster]

Even The Guardian doesn't claim that.

Next...

By Maggot logic, if Crystal Palace went one goal down in the first minute, they'd lose 90-nil.

 

[andysays]

At the end of the day certain groups will undoubtedly be inconvenienced to some degree and it's also going to cost others a few quid. That was always going to be the case. The question is, should the discomfort of some, overide the wishes of the majority who see other benefits? With that in mind, most people would probably consider the perceived plight of the handful of hobby musicians who'll be affected, somewhere on a par with that of British biscuit designers. Unfortunate, but of negligible consequence in the greater scheme of things.

This post really takes the biscuit...

 

[Maggot]

Even The Guardian doesn't claim that.

Next...

From the other thread.

 

[Maggot]

By Maggot logic, if Crystal Palace went one goal down in the first minute, they'd lose 90-nil.

Brexit is just a series of own goals.