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A thank you to Brexiteers.

Saul Goodman said:
I don't think I mentioned not talking about it. I was talking about all the whining, and more specifically, people blaming leave voters for every fuck-up the government has ever made.
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It’s not just the fuck-ups though, it’s the direction full stop and this is the actual leave campaign in government. This is what was enabled.
 
kebabking said:
Stop making yourself look like political dog vommit. Accept that it's happened, that it's not going to be reversed anytime soon. accept that not everyone thinks the same way you do in terms of cost/benefit, and that therefore they aren't going to be persuaded however much analysis you do on that basis. Stop walking around with a face like a slapped arse.

Be honest about the aspects of the EU that you aren't so keen on, be honest about how likely they are to change.

Get rid of this 'is it worth it?' mindset. You may think that this or that customs fee, or whatever physical cost of brexit is a catastrophic event, but to someone who thinks of brexit in terms of their identity, you look like someone who completely missed the whole point of the thing.

Learn. Listen. Learn. Humble pie. Listen. Learn.
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It's not just cost/benefit. It's losing the freedom to live and work in 27 other countries. It's jobs. It's breaking the Good Friday Agreement. It's Erasmus. It's staff shortages in the NHS.

Be honest about the downsides of Brexit.

You are hardly gonna change my mind by using insults like political dogs vomit, and face like a slapped arse.
 
brogdale said:
I'll be honest squirrel...(I've had a few beers, so maybe that's it?)...but I really don't get what you're getting at there!:)
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OK let me come at it from a different angle.
I was browsing the twitter feed of a former urban75 poster the other day and saw this quote. It is from The Politics of Everybody by Holly Lewis, I've no idea what the book as a whole is like but this fragment is on target.
Labor is not the focal point of Marxist politics because Marx felt more outrage over the fate of working folks then other groups of disenfranchised people, nor in Marxism a moral argument that proletarians are a honourable and valiant people, superior to the middle and upper classes. The proletarian is the pivotal political subject because productive labor is the strategic point from which capitalism is dismantled
....
Workers, the unemployed, their dependants, and allies routinely find creative ways to collude against capital
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Ellen Meiksins Wood makes the same point in her brilliant The Retreat from Class: A New "True" Socialism
This is not to say that the condition of the working class directly determines that its members will have socialism as their immediate class objective. It does, however, mean that they can uniquely advance the cause of socialism (though not completely achieve it) even without conceiving socialism as their class objective, by pursuing their material class interests, because these interests are by nature essentially opposed to capitalist class exploitation and to a class-dominated organization of production.
....
Furthermore, since the working class itself creates capital, and since the organization of production and appropriation places the collective labourer at the heart of the whole capitalist structure, the working class has a unique capacity to destroy capital.
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Class struggle is the nucleus of Marxism. This is so in two inseparable senses: it is class struggle that for Marxism explains the dynamic of history, and it is the abolition of classes, the obverse or end-product of class struggle, that is the ultimate objective of the revolutionary process. The particular importance for Marxism of the working class in capitalist society is that this is the only class whose own class interests require, and whose own conditions make possible, the abolition of class itself.
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It is the interests of the workers that class politics must be built on not their political views (of which voting is generally a pretty poor guide anyway). From the OP the whole tenor of this thread (and plenty of other ones) is that voters are responsible for policies that governments enact (I know that you did not go that far but other posters have).* And that path leads to the opposite direction to class politics, it seeks to create a coalition based not on material interests but on political views - being a Labour voter, being anti-Tory, being on the left. But someone does not leave the working class just because they have voted Tory, employers do not resolve the conflict of their interests with their employees because they vote Labour. For a politics that does not place class struggle at the heart of their politics there is a certain (limited) rational in assigning blame to voters, the conflict is between the left and right, Leave and Remain.

But what advantage is there in blaming voters for those of us that agree with Wood and Lewis? Surely it is better to emphasise the commonality of the material interests of all workers (whichever way they vote, or do not vote)? Is not the fact that majorities of tory voters recognise that nationalisations of key industries would be to their benefit is something that can be built on? The top reason people gave as a reason for voting leave was sovereignty, that they wanted greater control. OK you and I might not agree with all that they mean by sovereignty but surely the the fact that so many people recognised that capital and states are acting against their control of their lives, workplaces, communities was a good thing? My, and I assume your, aim is not to build the power 'the left' or the Labour Party, or even socialists, but the working class,


*Strangely enough this logic only seems to apply to those voters that vote wrong, so voting Leave was supporting Tories and racism, but voting Remain was absolutely not an endorsement of fortress Europe or the attacks on Spain, Italy, Greece. Voting Tory is making a choice in favour of austerity but voting LibDem is not, because that is an anti-Tory vote (regardless of the fact that the 2019 Tory manifesto was economically to the left of the LDs).
 
redsquirrel said:
OK let me come at it from a different angle.
I was browsing the twitter feed of a former urban75 poster the other day and saw this quote. It is from The Politics of Everybody by Holly Lewis, I've no idea what the book as a whole is like but this fragment is on target.

Ellen Meiksins Wood makes the same point in her brilliant The Retreat from Class: A New "True" Socialism



It is the interests of the workers that class politics must be built on not their political views (of which voting is generally a pretty poor guide anyway). From the OP the whole tenor of this thread (and plenty of other ones) is that voters are responsible for policies that governments enact (I know that you did not go that far but other posters have).* And that path leads to the opposite direction to class politics, it seeks to create a coalition based not on material interests but on political views - being a Labour voter, being anti-Tory, being on the left. But someone does not leave the working class just because they have voted Tory, employers do not resolve the conflict of their interests with their employees because they vote Labour. For a politics that does not place class struggle at the heart of their politics there is a certain (limited) rational in assigning blame to voters, the conflict is between the left and right, Leave and Remain.

But what advantage is there in blaming voters for those of us that agree with Wood and Lewis? Surely it is better to emphasise the commonality of the material interests of all workers (whichever way they vote, or do not vote)? Is not the fact that majorities of tory voters recognise that nationalisations of key industries would be to their benefit is something that can be built on? The top reason people gave as a reason for voting leave was sovereignty, that they wanted greater control. OK you and I might not agree with all that they mean by sovereignty but surely the the fact that so many people recognised that capital and states are acting against their control of their lives, workplaces, communities was a good thing? My, and I assume your, aim is not to build the power 'the left' or the Labour Party, or even socialists, but the working class,


*Strangely enough this logic only seems to apply to those voters that vote wrong, so voting Leave was supporting Tories and racism, but voting Remain was absolutely not an endorsement of fortress Europe or the attacks on Spain, Italy, Greece. Voting Tory is making a choice in favour of austerity but voting LibDem is not, because that is an anti-Tory vote (regardless of the fact that the 2019 Tory manifesto was economically to the left of the LDs).
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Thanks for such a thorough and patient response redsquirrel :thumbs:

I'll give that the thought it deserves before replying.
 
I am done with the remain/leave argument now because nobody listens. Far too tribal and pointless. Voted remain and consider myself an internationalist more than a European, however the EU was a good start imo.

Plenty of bickering on this thread from people who are (imo again) basing their responses on self interest at home or work. Ignoring the lying, racist and tax dodging cunts at the heart of this shit I have a bit more insight...

Have been working on the Northern Ireland protocol since November and while this is better than EU customs and trade, it is still a fucking disaster. If you wanted to leave then fair play to you but if you had spent the last 4 months dealing with the despair and anger from UK business you might think again.

The paperwork is way more than tenfold it was before and the systems are flawed. My staff (supporting customs) got three weeks training, whereas an HMRC agent would get six months.

I have a large team of people working for me and had 25% quit in the last week due to stress. They have endured racist and sexist abuse over the phone and I have had to deal with the Police/Gardi twice now due to threats.

Colleagues who live in Northern Ireland are telling me there are food shortages and hostility on the streets.

Just 'teething problems' until the 'Oven ready deal' kicks in I am sure. At least we have happy fish rotting in ports and blue (actually black) passports manufactured in Poland.

Hopefully the new nuclear weapons will help this police state stay safe.
 
redsquirrel said:
OK let me come at it from a different angle.
I was browsing the twitter feed of a former urban75 poster the other day and saw this quote. It is from The Politics of Everybody by Holly Lewis, I've no idea what the book as a whole is like but this fragment is on target.

Ellen Meiksins Wood makes the same point in her brilliant The Retreat from Class: A New "True" Socialism



It is the interests of the workers that class politics must be built on not their political views (of which voting is generally a pretty poor guide anyway). From the OP the whole tenor of this thread (and plenty of other ones) is that voters are responsible for policies that governments enact (I know that you did not go that far but other posters have).* And that path leads to the opposite direction to class politics, it seeks to create a coalition based not on material interests but on political views - being a Labour voter, being anti-Tory, being on the left. But someone does not leave the working class just because they have voted Tory, employers do not resolve the conflict of their interests with their employees because they vote Labour. For a politics that does not place class struggle at the heart of their politics there is a certain (limited) rational in assigning blame to voters, the conflict is between the left and right, Leave and Remain.

But what advantage is there in blaming voters for those of us that agree with Wood and Lewis? Surely it is better to emphasise the commonality of the material interests of all workers (whichever way they vote, or do not vote)? Is not the fact that majorities of tory voters recognise that nationalisations of key industries would be to their benefit is something that can be built on? The top reason people gave as a reason for voting leave was sovereignty, that they wanted greater control. OK you and I might not agree with all that they mean by sovereignty but surely the the fact that so many people recognised that capital and states are acting against their control of their lives, workplaces, communities was a good thing? My, and I assume your, aim is not to build the power 'the left' or the Labour Party, or even socialists, but the working class,


*Strangely enough this logic only seems to apply to those voters that vote wrong, so voting Leave was supporting Tories and racism, but voting Remain was absolutely not an endorsement of fortress Europe or the attacks on Spain, Italy, Greece. Voting Tory is making a choice in favour of austerity but voting LibDem is not, because that is an anti-Tory vote (regardless of the fact that the 2019 Tory manifesto was economically to the left of the LDs).
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Yes, I totally get the base/superstructure argument wrt to the party based politics of rep. dem.

My problem all along with the Brexit debate, (& I think I've been consistent in this view over the last 6 years posting on here), is that it only involved one aspect of the superstructural arrangement for promoting neoliberalism. Those advocating for accelerating neoliberalism by exiting the supra state certainly harnessed/exploited working class grievances with the deterioration in their material interests of the last 45 years, but I fear that, having bought into the Brexit project, many working class communities now see voting for the party that effected the exit as a solution.
 
brogdale said:
Yes, I totally get the base/superstructure argument wrt to the party based politics of rep. dem.

My problem all along with the Brexit debate, (& I think I've been consistent in this view over the last 6 years posting on here), is that it only involved one aspect of the superstructural arrangement for promoting neoliberalism. Those advocating for accelerating neoliberalism by exiting the supra state certainly harnessed/exploited working class grievances with the deterioration in their material interests of the last 45 years, but I fear that, having bought into the Brexit project, many working class communities now see voting for the party that effected the exit as a solution.
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www.reuters.com

U.S. vice president, WTO chief agree on need to reform global trade body

Vice President Kamala Harris and the head of the World Trade Organization agreed on Thursday about the need to reform the global trade body and pledged to work together to boost momentum for the global economy, the White House said.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
kebabking said:
Again, zero sum thinking - how many Covid serious hospitalisations/deaths do they think haven't happened because of those 1.6m vaccinations?

If they had a) a surfeit of other vaccines lying around to replace the AZ shot, and b) hadn't spent the last 2 months stoking the anti-vax Crowd, then this wouldn't be particularly problematic, but heh, guess what...
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Absolutely true but you are also ignoring both cultural issues and statutory obligations. There is a legal requirement to investigate abnormalities and being seen to proceed cautiously in some jurisdictions can promote confidence as much as, or more than, negative stories based on pisspoor journalistic understanding detract from it.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
This is unbelievably reckless behaviour by the EU. A policy based on generating unnecessary panics and seeking to ‘seize’ vaccines is verging on the criminally negligent. Can you imagine the reaction if the Tories were doing this?

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On paper it is reckless.

However the day that the Murdoch press is a valid opinion is not this day.
 


Christ these people are as dumb as fucking pork.

First they fuck up the vaccine procurement, then they fuck around with 'is it safe, am I going to grow a tail?' for 2 months, and then wonder why no one wants to put it in their arms, and secondly they - in very obvious panic - start threatening to seize the drug production factories and ripping off IP whole simultaneously saying 'come and set up your factory in the EU, where you can do business in legal security....'.

Shit. The. Fucking. Bed.
 
The39thStep said:
To be fair Badgers we don’t have the Murdoch press here but the view is the same in the press here . The EU programme is slow , fractured by supply issues and it it should be a lot better .
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Except they now have also created issues that fracture demand. and it should knpw better.
 
beesonthewhatnow said:
Now that the lockdown easing/vaccination program is ongoing I’m starting to see a few ads for possible touring work next year.

Almost without exception they all specify a European passport as a requirement.

Fuck you leave voters. Fuck the lot of you.
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No English, Some Irish, Dogs welcome.

Sounds borderline illegal to advertise that in the U.K., currently there is a lot of confusion over U.K. people
working in the EU and what the new rules are, cos they are new and cos hardly anyone has done it cos of Covid. I take it you are not planning on going back out on the road, have you thought of using your contacts to set up visa procurement for audio technicians? The process is incredibly simple, I have been doing it for a number of artists on my books who need to work in the EU regularly but couldn’t come back to the U.K. cos of Covid restrictions and so have stayed out there and burned through their 90 days, have got them all visas to stay out pretty much indefinitely. You could make a killing, it has certainly brought in more money than flights have these past few months...
 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
No English, Some Irish, Dogs welcome.

Sounds borderline illegal to advertise that in the U.K., currently there is a lot of confusion over U.K. people
working in the EU and what the new rules are, cos they are new and cos hardly anyone has done it cos of Covid. I take it you are not planning on going back out on the road, have you thought of using your contacts to set up visa procurement for audio technicians? The process is incredibly simple, I have been doing it for a number of artists on my books who need to work in the EU regularly but couldn’t come back to the U.K. cos of Covid restrictions and so have stayed out there and burned through their 90 days, have got them all visas to stay out pretty much indefinitely. You could make a killing, it has certainly brought in more money than flights have these past few months...
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The reason people are asking for EU passports is the sheer uncertainty. While there’s every chance things will be clearer/sorted next year, that’s no use now when people are booking everything.

As for it being borderline, yeah, probably is. But the whole scene is so “who you know” and informal in the way people are booked it’s easy for those involved to do.
 
beesonthewhatnow said:
As for visa procurement... Hmmm, maybe. Tell me how 😂
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Contact the embassy of the first country they go to (or the one where they’ll spend most time) and ask for a talent visa, once they have that they can stay in the EU for far longer than 90 days so long as they are being paid by a non-EU company for doing so, i.e. the ‘talent’ works for (is represented by) an agency in the U.K. - so maybe also set up as a roadie-agent too...although the shortened form of that would be rodent, which ain’t great...
 
beesonthewhatnow said:
Fuck you leave voters. Fuck the lot of you.
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beesonthewhatnow said:
As for it being borderline, yeah, probably is. But the whole scene is so “who you know” and informal in the way people are booked it’s easy for those involved to do.
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From all the stuff you and others have posted about the music/events industry, it appears to a complete outsider that your industry is fucked and based on even higher levels of exploitation than normal.

Maybe you might consider actually addressing those issues rather than constantly blaming those of us who voted the opposite way to you in a referendum five years ago for all your problems.
 
andysays said:
Maybe you might consider actually addressing those issues rather than constantly blaming those of us who voted the opposite way to you in a referendum five years ago for all your problems.
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The fact that Bees no longer has an EU passport is entirely the fault of the people who voted for Brexit.
 
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