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A thank you to Brexiteers.

brogdale said:
It was and that's certainly what post-polling found.
But it's also true that voting Tory ensured that the party's wider agenda was realised.
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As The39thStep said how far (back) are you taking this logic? Did all those that voted Labour in 2005 endorse the Iraq war? All three major UK parties stood on a policy of austerity in 2010 and 2015, so did a majority of the UK electorate ensure the austerity agenda was realised? People vote for parties for all kinds of reasons. Moreover, making voting a (the key) political action ignores all the real politics that is involved in people's day to day lives.
 
Sugar Kane said:
Many Irish people ended up in Australia not by choice but because they were sent there..
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I totally agree. Many Scots-Irish, English and other nationalities too.

However, once there (in conjunction with the other non-native peoples) they would have been as culpable for the appalling treatment of aboriginal peoples as any other nationality.

This is way off topic though, and the point I was attempting was to say that no nation can have a totally clear conscience for some events during that period of history.
 
butcher said:
I totally agree. Many Scots-Irish, English and other nationalities too.

However, once there (in conjunction with the other non-native peoples) they would have been as culpable for the appalling treatment of aboriginal peoples as any other nationality.

This is way off topic though, and the point I was attempting was to say that no nation can have a totally clear conscience for some events during that period of history.
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I agree with you.
 
Pickman's model said:
Highland clearances started long before the famine, round 1750
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The Irish Famine of 1740–1741 (Irish: Bliain an Áir, meaning the Year of Slaughter) in the Kingdom of Ireland, is estimated to have killed between 13% and 20% of the 1740 population of 2.4 million people, which was a proportionately greater loss than during the Great Famine 100 years later.
 
sleaterkinney said:
The end of the transition period itself only happened a few months ago and already the UK is trying to rewrite what it signed up to, and the effects are still happening. Of course it should be talked about.
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I don't think I mentioned not talking about it. I was talking about all the whining, and more specifically, people blaming leave voters for every fuck-up the government has ever made.
 
redsquirrel said:
As The39thStep said how far (back) are you taking this logic? Did all those that voted Labour in 2005 endorse the Iraq war? All three major UK parties stood on a policy of austerity in 2010 and 2015, so did a majority of the UK electorate ensure the austerity agenda was realised? People vote for parties for all kinds of reasons. Moreover, making voting a (the key) political action ignores all the real politics that is involved in people's day to day lives.
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When I mentioned the 74% of Leave voters that went on to vote Tory in December 2019 in reply to TopCat earlier to day, I didn't actually speculate about their motivation, endorsement of policy or any reasons for their decision, merely that they had. In doing so, either wittingly or unwittingly, their collective choice did ensure that the Tories are in a position to effect their manifesto commitments.

Given that 58% of 2015 Tory voters went on to vote Leave the next year, there must be many who wittingly did endorse much of what the Tory manifesto promised.
 
brogdale said:
When I mentioned the 74% of Leave voters that went on to vote Tory in December 2019 in reply to TopCat earlier to day, I didn't actually speculate about their motivation, endorsement of policy or any reasons for their decision, merely that they had. In doing so, either wittingly or unwittingly, their collective choice did ensure that the Tories are in a position to effect their manifesto commitments.
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So in your view in 2010 an absolute majority of the electorate made the collective choice (and 49.9% in 2015) for the implementation of austerity? Or in 1997 Labour voters must have been ensuring the wider agenda of the Blair government was realised.
 
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redsquirrel said:
So in your view in 2010 an absolute majority of the electorate made the collective choice (and 49.9% in 2015) for the implementation of austerity? Or in 1997 Labour voters must have been ensuring the wider agenda of the Blair government was realised.
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Kind of what happens when you vote for parties that secure a majority?
 
brogdale said:
Kind of what happens when you vote for parties that secure a majority?
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Not in my view. For me voting (in a local/general election) is an almost apolitical act. The collective responsibility lies with the council/government and (to a lesser extent) the party members. Doing otherwise minimises the alignment of the political interests (rather than the views) of the working class
 
brogdale said:
Kind of what happens when you vote for parties that secure a majority?
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But we don't.
Yeah there are bunch of interested parties, and a bunch of fanbois for whom political parties are their Premiership football club type thing. But people, I think, don't vote for parties they vote against them.
 
Can we blame brexiters for this new bill going thru its second reading

fuck it i will anyways

and anyone who voted for the fucking tories

:mad:
 
gosub said:
But we don't.
Yeah there are bunch of interested parties, and a bunch of fanbois for whom political parties are their Premiership football club type thing. But people, I think, don't vote for parties they vote against them.
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I think the drift of some of the discussion in here today is very much that 2019 represented an example of where many folk were voting for a party, for one key reason.
 
redsquirrel said:
Not in my view. For me voting (in a local/general election) is an almost apolitical act. The collective responsibility lies with the council/government and (to a lesser extent) the party members. Doing otherwise minimises the alignment of the political interests (rather than the views) of the working class
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I'll be honest squirrel...(I've had a few beers, so maybe that's it?)...but I really don't get what you're getting at there!:)
 
gosub said:
'Get Brexit done!' wasn't an endorsement of the absolute dogs dinner the Tories had made of it, it was a non endorsement of the counter idea : what this really needs now is another referendum'
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That seems a little over-worked to me. I suspect many of the 74% Leave voters who voted Tory in 2019 to 'Get Brexit Done' did so for just that.
 
The precautionary principle is literally killing Europe (telegraph.co.uk)

I looked the John Hopkins graphs they look pretty much like they did this time last year (not here but EU) France is now estimating in won't get 75% vaccinated til end of September., which means they won't actually get the 75% at all - not without binning the order for half the country and getting a different one. And you need to get 70-75 to have either had it or be vaccinated against it to start thinking in terms of herd immunity. Imagine being a year into this without being able to see (touch wood) the end of the tunnel
 
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