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A thank you to Brexiteers.

what are we hoping to learn by listening to people who see brexit in terms of their identity ? (Not meant to sound sarcastic or derisive though i know it does, not my intention, straight question).
i already know that lots of people in the UK hold all sorts of views and attitudes that are different to my own, why is this a particularly valuable learning opportunity more than every election and every poll that says we heart the monarchy or whatver?
 
Saul Goodman said:
I actually do. I give more of a shit than you could imagine. I feed homeless people. I do unpaid work for homeless people. I'm also about to be made homeless, but not because of Brexit, because of Covid.
Please don't judge what you have no clue about.
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Point is. Nobody is in full control of their life right now.
Brexit...Covid....whatever.
It's easy to say get on with it and do something. In the past people left Ireland for work in their droves. Fully intending to return some day. Most of them never came back.
They had no choice but to go. Luckily they did have places to go to...like the UK and the US. Nowadays they probably would not be welcome.

Brexit has made movement more difficult for UK residents. That's definitely going to impact on people in the UK who want to move /live in another european country. The UK isnt exactly used to its citizens moving out of the UK to look for work. It's been the other way round...historically ..

Covid isnt going to go away any time soon either. The impact of covid has been massive. It's by no means over yet and I suspect wont be for another 2 to 3 years.

It's all quite shit.
 
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bimble said:
what are we hoping to learn by listening to people who see brexit in terms of their identity ? (Not meant to sound sarcastic or derisive though i know it does, not my intention, straight question).
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That not everyone sees things the same way. The majority of complaints on these threads have been about the extra costs involved in importing goods from the EU or the perceived difficulties in travelling or working there. Quite a few people see these as prices worth paying in return for no longer being part of an anti-democratic, heavily flawed system. Others also see it it in far longer terms than queues at borders 2 months after the hard leave.
 
Spymaster said:
That not everyone sees things the same way. The majority of complaints on these threads have been about the extra costs involved in importing goods from the EU or the perceived difficulties in travelling or working there. Quite a few people see these as prices worth paying in return for no longer being part of an anti-democratic, heavily flawed system. Others also see it it in far longer terms than queues at borders 2 months after the hard leave.
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Not everyone sees things the same way? That is big news to me because every other thing about the UK, political and social, is a perfect mirror of my own concerns & priorities. :hmm:
 
bimble said:
Not everyone sees things the same way? That is big news to me because every other thing about the UK, political and social, is a perfect mirror of my own concerns & priorities. :hmm:
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Well I guess you’re being sarcastic there but in doing so you’ve answered your previous question.
 
Spymaster said:
Well I guess you’re being sarcastic there but in doing so you’ve answered your previous question.
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How so? I asked what it is I'm supposed to learn from listening to the people who voted brexit because of their sense of identity. Is it learn from them or about them idk. I'm happy to learn more about the country i'm in, what motivates my neighbours etc, but i'm not going to develop the same feelings i dont think ever, just by accident of birth maybe.
 
bimble said:
How so? I asked what it is I'm supposed to learn from listening to the people who voted brexit because of their sense of identity. Is it learn from them or about them idk. I'm happy to learn more about the country i'm in, what motivates my neighbours etc, but i'm not going to develop the same feelings i dont think ever, just by accident of birth maybe.
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Ah, you edited your post.

Nobody is asking you to develop the same feelings. Kebabking’s post was directed at people like Maggot and others who continuously insist that others ‘show them the benefits of leaving’ before dismissing them as non-benefits.
 
anyhow, i'm happier when i stick to the gardening thread. Do wonder if at this point a lot of this is a personality thing, i was well pissed off that night 5 years ago (as was everyone in my 98% remain area local pub) but really don't feel anything about it now, apart from i hope things turn out mostly ok. Can't sustain pissed-offness for any length of time, must be exhausting, but also my home & job are fine and i have a collection of passports so i'm alright jack plays a part for sure.
 
Poi E said:
Perpetual Brexit-the revolution must be sustained. Foreigners, the disabled, BLM, ungrateful Europe, save the statues, screw the travellers. Rinse and fucking repeat.
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I can’t speak for others but not one person I know voted leave for any of those reasons. They seem to be the issues that preoccupy you.

The economy, jobs, wages, deindustrialisation and ‘if the elite say vote remain then we are voting leave’ were actual motivating factors. I’d add race as a factor although that really wasn’t an issue here.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
I can’t speak for others but not one person I know voted leave for any of those reasons. They seem to be the issues that preoccupy you.

The economy, jobs, wages, deindustrialisation and ‘if the elite say vote remain then we are voting leave’ were actual motivating factors. I’d add race as a factor although that really wasn’t an issue here.
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Good for you. Road to hell paved with good intentions, eh?
 
Smokeandsteam said:
Can you offer up any clues as to why leave voters might have voted for the only party that supported leave rather than one of the parties committed to either remain or a re-run?

A difficult question I know...
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Yup, struggling.

But, the graphic was a response to TopCat 's question of whether it was Leave voters who supported the Tories' targets in their perpetual culture wars?

Looking back it's apparent that 74% of Leave voters did, consciously or unconsciously, vote for the party whose manifesto contained much of the shitty list above.

1615885165927.png
 
brogdale said:
Yup, struggling.

But, the graphic was a response to TopCat 's question of whether it was Leave voters who supported the Tories' targets in their perpetual culture wars?

Looking back it's apparent that 74% of Leave voters did, consciously or unconsciously, vote for the party whose manifesto contained much of the shitty list above.

View attachment 258899
Click to expand...


What could have happened if Labour and the Lib Dems had said, "The vote has happened, it was close but leave won, let's enact that." Rather than the shrill handwringing which just gifted a massive majority to Johnson in spite of that shitty manifesto?
 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
What could have happened if Labour and the Lib Dems had said, "The vote has happened, it was close but leave won, let's enact that." Rather than the shrill handwringing which just gifted a massive majority to Johnson in spite of that shitty manifesto?
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'What ifs' are always interesting to contemplate, but I feel more comfortable staying with the actuality that 74% of Leave voters decided, in December 2019, to prioritise their desire to exit the supra state over and above the (shitty) content of the manifesto commitments their vote realised.
e2a: or, indeed, a proportion of them may well have felt completely comfortable with the tory culture war agenda anyway?
 
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littlebabyjesus said:
It's not just acceptable. It's fucking necessary. Brexit wasn't some natural disaster. It's not Covid19. It's a choice. Doing it this way is a choice. They need to be held to account for every Brexit-related fuck-up and shit consequence.
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While this is certainly true, there appears to be an attitude among some Remain supporters here and elsewhere (and I call them that because that is clearly how they still see themselves) that every Brexit-related government fuck up demonstrates the stupidity of Brexit and all those who voted for it, rather than the stupidity of the government's implementation of it.

And that attitude is actually an obstacle when it comes to holding the government to account, because it continues to see people in terms of Leave and Remain supporters, rather than people who have been affected by the government's many Brexit fuck ups.
 
andysays said:
And that attitude is actually an obstacle when it comes to holding the government to account, because it continues to see people in terms of Leave and Remain supporters, rather than people who have been affected by the government's many Brexit fuck ups.
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A good point, but a somewhat inevitable outcome from such a 'single-issue' GE that saw 3/4 of the Leave vote contribute to the Tory landslide victory. December 2019 has fixed that L/R dynamic until at least 2024.
 
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