A frank discussion about feminist, marxist and racist *ahem* race ideology etc.

[winifred]

It's not silly at all as you are focusing on us.

Well, you're both female and have been quite outspoken re: this thread and the other - so who better to ask?

'Mixed race credentials' ? Is that how you view these things? Most people would acknowledge experiences/perspectives. It's the way you frame these things that is annoying tbh. 'Credentials' like it's a competition or a profession.

You've both identified you're mixed race (or of mixed heritage as I'd prefer to call it) to reinforce your opinions in both the other thread and this one re: real life 'black' experiences and to register your personal indignation of a white person allegedly blacking up. To the casual observer it might have given more credence to your opinions on the concept of 'race' over all, but I would have to say that you both appeared to confuse matters as well within some of the discussion.

Tag team? There you go again.

I could have included Pickman's model as well - but I didn't because it's patently obvious that he's a complete numpty when it comes to understanding the complexities of race.

Mochasoul and I have disgreed with you, along with other people I might add. There's no competition, no sides, no conspiracy. In fact, much of this is about the way you have described and framed this discussion and misrepresented the other thread. So instead of 'playing the victim' why not challenge yourself to understand why, despite your attempts at discussion here, you are not getting anywhere fast.

I don't know about that. I think my discussion serves as a very persuasive counterpoint to your own re: race. And the reason why I've grouped yourself and MochaSoul together was because there was much agreement between the two of you as to how you discussed the nuances of a mixed heritage re: the real 'black' lived experience in comparison to the selective/artificial experience of a 'white' woman pretending to be black. You also influenced a lot of the discussion within the other thread, so that's why I've grouped you together as a 'tag team' of sorts.

It's not an alleged misrepresentation, it's here for all to read.

I already countered your accusations against me in post #92. Please move on.

Also see your title for this thread... how can I take you seriously when you couldn't resist the 'ahem, ooohhhhh dangerous me, dare we go there' addition.

It was meant as a play on words i.e. there were established terms in use to critique capitalism and patriarchy, but not racism. So, again, you misrepresent me with your flippant remarks.

Also, how can I take yourself or anybody else seriously when you turned the Dolezal thread into a movie word association game for a couple of pages of pure childishness?

You are making demands; demanding we answer your questions despite the fact you refuse to acknowledge our actual issues with how you have framed this discussion, misrepresented the other thread and continue to frame our contributions.

And you're talking pure tosh again. If you look at the two requests I made to both yourself and MochaSoul, there was no indication of any demands being made. All I can see is two people apparently dragging their feet on a simpe question - presumably because they're unsure as to how to answer it.

You are openly and clearly making massive assumptions, positioning yourself as the 'voice of reason' as well as glossing over some very basic yet important objections people have about why and how you have set up this discussion.

I want to put my point across in terms of how 'race' is in danger of being rooted in the specific i.e. peoples personal experiences and grievances etc., which risks missing out on the bigger picture = tackling the root cause of racism = questioning the prevelance of 'race'/racial terminology as a legitimate concept and/or an automatic given within everyday Western society.

 

[Pickman's model]

I could have included Pickman's model as well - but I didn't because it's patently obvious that he's a complete numpty when it comes to understanding the complexities of race.

you've said quite enough on this thread, and others, to make plain that you are unable to deal with other people as you simply don't understand them. you don't do debate, you do winifred wanks where you think you're the arbiter of everything. now fuck off.

 

[winifred]

you've said quite enough on this thread, and others, to make plain that you are unable to deal with other people as you simply don't understand them. you don't do debate, you do winifred wanks where you think you're the arbiter of everything. now fuck off.

I think I've been quite understanding over all, and have been especially patient with an arrogant 'know-it-all' poster such as yourself. I've also tried to discuss things in a calm and measured manner, whilst avoiding the bullshit PC and walking on egg shells attitude that only serves to dilute and stifle such discussions. So all I'm trying to do is put things across from a different perspective, whilst a self-centred shit-head like yourself is trying to silence me - on the basis that I don't understand others? Don't make me fucking laugh!

If you find my posting style so distasteful then I suggest you follow your own advice and go fuck yourself mate [Edit: << Yes, I've used a yellow faced smilie which is no way representative of how I look in real life, or a means of symbolising myself as a Chinese person]

 

[Pickman's model]

I think I've been quite understanding over all, and have been especially patient with an arrogant 'know-it-all' poster such as yourself. I've also tried to discuss things in a calm and measured manner, whilst avoiding the bullshit PC and walking on egg shells attitude that only serves to dilute and stifle such discussions. So all I'm trying to do is put things across from a different perspective, whilst a self-centred shit-head like yourself is trying to silence me - on the basis that I don't understand others? Don't make me fucking laugh!

If you find my posting style so distasteful then I suggest you follow your own advice and go fuck yourself mate [Edit: << Yes, I've used a yellow faced smilie which is no way representative of how I look in real life, or a means of symbolising myself as a Chinese person]

you do know i've never asked you to go fuck yourself, right? you made that up. and i don't object to your style but the substance of your posts. it's things you've said to Rutita1 & to MochaSoul which have offended them, and me. i thought the way you read race into mochasoul's username particularly shit. i disagree it's all bout me, i disagree i'm so self-centred - i, after all, haven't been bangimg on about me nearly as much as you have. you want this to be the wonderful world of winifred thread, and i'm not competing with you. i don't have half your egocentrick view of the world, nor do i blithely assume i lnow how to interptet the cabala of other people's usernames. you've the ego of bono, and tbh all his chatm too.

 

[Pickman's model]

for chatm read charm

 

[winifred]

you do know i've never asked you to go fuck yourself, right? you made that up.

Telling somebody to go fuck themselves is tantamount to telling them to fuck off. Given your obvious pedantry, why am I not surprised that you chose to pick me up on such a trivial fucking matter?

and i don't object to your style but the substance of your posts. it's things you've said to Rutita1 & to MochaSoul which have offended them, and me.

My suggestion to yourself (and not necessarily to the other two) is to grow a pair why don't you. I've lost count of the number of offensive posts you've pissed over my way. What a fucking hypocrite!

i thought the way you read race into mochasoul's username particularly shit.

Do you dispute that it's tied on with a racial identity of sorts, or do you still hold that it's a homage to her favourite beverage?

i disagree it's all bout me, i disagree i'm so self-centred - i, after all, haven't been bangimg on about me nearly as much as you have. you want this to be the wonderful world of winifred thread, and i'm not competing with you. i don't have half your egocentrick view of the world, nor do i blithely assume i lnow how to interptet the cabala of other people's usernames. you've the ego of bono, and tbh all his chatm too.

I'll forgive your typos as you're obviously in a hurry to get your words in. But you know what, they're meaningless and lack the kind of substance that you claim I also lack. Rather than accepting things as they are, why not question the basis of things - especially if they're inherently wrong re: having racial descriptors etc. If you were to be pedantic about anything, surely you would have picked up on that and rolled with it, rather than equating me to some sort of evangelical poster.

I'm passionate about making a difference wherever I can, and part of that involves questioning racial narratives within online media such as this discussion site. If I see racism within my everyday life I try to combat it. If that makes me egocentric, then so be it. Personally, I don't think you even know the meaning of the word, which is probably why you mispelt it within your post.

 

[Pickman's model]

Telling somebody to go fuck themselves is tantamount to telling them to fuck off. Given your obvious pedantry, why am I not surprised that you chose to pick me up on such a trivial fucking matter?


My suggestion to yourself (and not necessarily to the other two) is to grow a pair why don't you. I've lost count of the number of offensive posts you've pissed over my way. What a fucking hypocrite!


Do you dispute that it's tied on with a racial identity of sorts, or do you still hold that it's a homage to her favourite beverage?


I'll forgive your typos as you're obviously in a hurry to get your words in. But you know what, they're meaningless and lack the kind of substance that you claim I also lack. Rather than accepting things as they are, why not question the basis of things - especially if they're inherently wrong re: having racial descriptors etc. If you were to be pedantic about anything, surely you would have picked up on that and rolled with it, rather than equating me to some sort of evangelical poster.

I'm passionate about making a difference wherever I can, and part of that involves questioning racial narratives within online media such as this discussion site. If I see racism within my everyday life I try to combat it. If that makes me egocentric, then so be it. Personally, I don't think you even know the meaning of the word, which is probably why you mispelt it within your post.

we can do this the easy way or we can do this the hard way. the hard way involves you actually reading and comprehending other people's posts, something you don't seem to favour. for example, while the insult of telling someone to fuck themselves is perhaps on a par with telling them to fuck off, they are in fact two different insults. for example, i never said your posts lacked substance, i said i objected to the substance of your posts. so, we can blithely carry on with me saying one thing and you responding to what you think i said but didn't; you could do the decent thing and make an effort to understand other people's posts; or you could fuck off - not go fuck yourself - not go fuck a dolphin.

 

[winifred]

we can do this the easy way or we can do this the hard way. the hard way involves you actually reading and comprehending other people's posts, something you don't seem to favour.

Okay, all I'm getting from that segment is a condescending and patronising tone, which is all too familiar. It is you coming from yourself after all - and again, what a fucking hypocrite you are.

for example, while the insult of telling someone to fuck themselves is perhaps on a par with telling them to fuck off, they are in fact two different insults.

Okay, yet more nit picking over something that pretty much means the same thing in terms of being provocative and rude. Yep, I'm really understanding you man.

for example, i never said your posts lacked substance, i said i objected to the substance of your posts. so, we can blithely carry on with me saying one thing and you responding to what you think i said but didn't;

Yes, I misinterpreted the meaning within your post, but the irony is that I couldn't be arsed to take it all in - precisely because it lacked any inherent substance imo.

you could do the decent thing and make an effort to understand other people's posts; or you could fuck off - not go fuck yourself - not go fuck a dolphin.

How's about you do something really constructive for once and focus your pedantry on the issues raised within this thread, rather than giving me your own biased assessment of my online persona/conduct. Otherwise, perhaps you're the one who should be fucking off instead eh?

 

[MochaSoul]

tbh i'd assumed coffee played some part in your username story.

Naturally. Mocha is a coffee bean which has a chocolate "bouquet" (for want of a better word) to it. Etymologically, the word means exactly that "mixture of coffee with chocolate". If we apply Winifred's idiotic reasoning to my nickname,based on that though, then I, by adopting such a name, would be rejecting my not only my European heritage but the culture that actually saw me raised. Of course, Mocha, as adopted by the beverage industry to appeal to European tastes, has diluted itself in milk. Since milk makes me squirm (my tea is undiluted, my coffee is black and proud , my mocha is always "Mocha, please skip the milk") then I obviously suffer from a rabid hate of "white" that spills over to my coffee. Oh no! Take that away from me.

I may have just done it to myself!

 

[8ball]

Tbf I've heard the term "mocha latte" to refer to mixed race people with blue or green eyes before (think it's an American thing).

Not that you can be sure what's behind a username, obv.

For instance, I'm neither small nor black.
Though I am a bit round these days.

 

[MochaSoul]

"Mocha Soul" titles both Ike & Tina Turner and Impromt2 tracks. Ooh, I wonder which inspired me for my name.

 

[MochaSoul]

[Edit: << Yes, I've used a yellow faced smilie which is no way representative of how I look in real life, or a means of symbolising myself as a Chinese person]

That double stand positively deserves, nay, requires revelling on!

 

[8ball]

"Mocha Soul" titles both Ike & Tina Turner and Impromt2 tracks. Ooh, I wonder which inspired me for my name

Is this a trick question - did the Vengaboys ever do a track by that name?

 

[MochaSoul]

How's about you do something really constructive for once and focus your pedantry on the issues raised within this thread, rather than giving me your own biased assessment of my online persona/conduct. Otherwise, perhaps you're the one who should be fucking off instead eh?

I've disagreed with a lot of people, in other days, I've been called a "maverick" and even an "exocet" but the people who called me that could at least read my words and take them as they were written and in the spirit within which they were written and I made friends with them. You make it impossible. You twist everything that is said to you into what you hear they said... and not just regards race, e.g. how you turned my alluding to facebook (in response to 8ball) into "facebook generation" when my reference was nowt to do with facebook but a societal framework existed and permeated society way before facebook arrived to take advantage of.

I, second Pickman's model in thinking the conversation would flow into something a lot more constructive without you in it and I've held that notion since before you decided to psychoanalyse me. I can deal with his pedantry a lot better than with your constant reframing of what I say in your terms and reasoning. For all his pedanticism he's got something you sorely lack and that is a modicum of self-awareness.

 

[winifred]

Naturally. Mocha is a coffee bean which has a chocolate "bouquet" (for want of a better word) to it. Etymologically, the word means exactly that "mixture of coffee with chocolate". If we apply Winifred's idiotic reasoning to my nickname,based on that though, then I, by adopting such a name, would be rejecting my not only my European heritage but the culture that actually saw me raised. Of course, Mocha, as adopted by the beverage industry to appeal to European tastes, has diluted itself in milk. Since milk makes me squirm (my tea is undiluted, my coffee is black and proud , my mocha is always "Mocha, please skip the milk") then I obviously suffer from a rabid hate of "white" that spills over to my coffee. Oh no! Take that away from me.

MochaSoul, I hate to say it but you don't do sarcastic humour very well. Probably best to stick to what you do best; namely, personal life-story stuff and lots of online indignation.

NB. Also, not too sure about the use of emotive poetry in your previous post. Smacks a little of someone being overly dramatic imho.

 

[MochaSoul]

Is this a trick question - did the Vengaboys ever do a track by that name?

Nope. More of a rhetorical one.

 

[MochaSoul]

MochaSoul, I hate to say it but you don't do sarcastic humour very well. Probably best to stick to what you do best; namely, personal life-story stuff and lots of online indignation.

NB. Also, not too sure about the use of emotive poetry in your previous post. Smacks a little of someone being overly dramatic imho.

Fuck off!

 

[winifred]

I've disagreed with a lot of people, in other days, I've been called a "maverick" and even an "exocet" but the people who called me that could at least read my words and take them as they were written and in the spirit within which they were written and I made friends with them. You make it impossible. You twist everything that is said to you into what you hear they said... and not just regards race, e.g. how you turned my alluding to facebook (in response to 8ball) into "facebook generation" when my reference was nowt to do with facebook but a societal framework existed and permeated society way before facebook arrived to take advantage of.

So I made assumptions based on what you posted. We all make assumptions to some extent - you've also done so in relation to myself. But what intrigued me was a comment that you had previously made in response to my post:

You know what, Winifred? One of the worsts of racism is the automatic assumption. It annoys, it irritates and it angers because... dismissive is its nature.

Are you saying that I've been 'racist', based on your assessment that I've been dismissive of your mixed heritage and your associated lived experience of it?

What did you mean by this?

I, second Pickman's model in thinking the conversation would flow into something a lot more constructive without you in it and I've held that notion since before you decided to psychoanalyse me.

Firstly, I haven't tried to psychoanalyse you. You talk so much shit sometimes it's unbelievable. Secondly, would you be constructive like coming out with mocking movie titles?

I, second Pickman's model in thinking the conversation would flow into something a lot more constructive without you in it and I've held that notion since before you decided to psychoanalyse me. I can deal with his pedantry a lot better than with your constant reframing of what I say in your terms and reasoning. For all his pedanticism he's got something you sorely lack and that is a modicum of self-awareness.

I'm self aware in the sense that I know that my perspective seems quite idealistic to most of the posters who have responded to my posts so far. But, I'd rather push an agenda for radical change rather than your apparent approach of recognising the disparities of race, but still choosing to adopt the labels of race - thereby perpetuating the problem.

As for Pickman's model, he obviously gets a hard-on every time he sees an opportunity to pick me up on something. So you're entitled to agree with him, but I'd have to say that you are also showing your bias towards me. And the only reason why the conversation veers into being unconstructive is because there's a group of you who fundamentally disagree with me (rightly or wrongly), and that often leads to protracted disagreements such as the one we've entered into now.

The best way for the discussion to flow is for us to avoid posting against each other. It's just a shame that you're not entirely transparent in terms of answering the questions that I've put to you previously. It has a big bearing on this thread, but all you seek to do is to harp on about how I've misrepresented you and the other thread. As I said before, it's probably best to avoid each other.

 

[winifred]

Fuck off!

You're welcome.

 

[Pickman's model]

Okay, all I'm getting from that segment is a condescending and patronising tone, which is all too familiar. It is you coming from yourself after all - and again, what a fucking hypocrite you are.


Okay, yet more nit picking over something that pretty much means the same thing in terms of being provocative and rude. Yep, I'm really understanding you man.


Yes, I misinterpreted the meaning within your post, but the irony is that I couldn't be arsed to take it all in - precisely because it lacked any inherent substance imo.


How's about you do something really constructive for once and focus your pedantry on the issues raised within this thread, rather than giving me your own biased assessment of my online persona/conduct. Otherwise, perhaps you're the one who should be fucking off instead eh?

if you have trouble understandn

Okay, all I'm getting from that segment is a condescending and patronising tone, which is all too familiar. It is you coming from yourself after all - and again, what a fucking hypocrite you are.


Okay, yet more nit picking over something that pretty much means the same thing in terms of being provocative and rude. Yep, I'm really understanding you man.


Yes, I misinterpreted the meaning within your post, but the irony is that I couldn't be arsed to take it all in - precisely because it lacked any inherent substance imo.


How's about you do something really constructive for once and focus your pedantry on the issues raised within this thread, rather than giving me your own biased assessment of my online persona/conduct. Otherwise, perhaps you're the one who should be fucking off instead eh?

the thing is your stupidity makes it impossible to have a meaningful exchange with you because you lack the intellectual wherewithal to understand what"s going on. you rrply to thngs that are not there, to inventions. i wonder if you find this irl too. anyway, bugger off and do something less useful with your time instead of fucking about here.

 

[Pickman's model]

handicapped by shit phone: pls disregard all before 2d quote in last post

 

[winifred]

if you have trouble understandn

the thing is your stupidity makes it impossible to have a meaningful exchange with you because you lack the intellectual wherewithal to understand what"s going on. you rrply to thngs that are not there, to inventions. i wonder if you find this irl too. anyway, bugger off and do something less useful with your time instead of fucking about here.

There's been misunderstandings and misinterpretations on both sides as far as I can see. That's because we've already developed an adversarial relationship with each other. Not something I wanted to happen in the first instance as it severely distracts from the discussion. And yes, true to form you're continuing with the intellectual put downs. I'd possibly take that if it came from somebody with a high intellect, but coming from you it's just another case of you spouting your usual idiotic bullshit.

Also, I'm not setting out to fuck about, which is why I had a hiatus from this site recently = I've got more important things to do with my life than to fuck about online with the likes of idiots such as yourself. Whereas, you appear to be on this site all the time. So who's really into fucking about online - me or you? << That was a rhetorical question just in case you didn't pick that up.

 

[winifred]

handicapped by shit phone: pls disregard all before 2d quote in last post

It's the internet numb-nuts... once it's out there, it stays there! *Unless you happen to be a dodgy mod that is*

 

[winifred]

[Posted by mistake]

 

[Pickman's model]

It's the internet numb-nuts... once it's out there, it stays there! *Unless you happen to be a dodgy mod that is*

this is indicative of you on a good day.

 

[Pickman's model]

[Posted by mistake]

sadly you only recognise your mistakes rarely

 

[Pickman's model]

There's been misunderstandings and misinterpretations on both sides as far as I can see. That's because we've already developed an adversarial relationship with each other. Not something I wanted to happen in the first instance as it severely distracts from the discussion. And yes, true to form you're continuing with the intellectual put downs. I'd possibly take that if it came from somebody with a high intellect, but coming from you it's just another case of you spouting your usual idiotic bullshit.

Also, I'm not setting out to fuck about, which is why I had a hiatus from this site recently = I've got more important things to do with my life than to fuck about online with the likes of idiots such as yourself. Whereas, you appear to be on this site all the time. So who's really into fucking about online - me or you? << That was a rhetorical question just in case you didn't pick that up.

what a load of auld shite. i was going to write a long response but you're not worth it. let me just echo MochaSoul: go home and fuck your mother

 

[8ball]

Well, this one turned out nice...

 

[winifred]

Well, this one turned out nice...

It's not the way I wanted it to go, believe me. I think some people need to cool off... and on that note I will be on my way now.

 

[cesare]

Is this layabout?