A frank discussion about feminist, marxist and racist *ahem* race ideology etc.

[MochaSoul]

Yeah, like I said in #136 the specific links on here deal with things in a more rounded way, but I don't think boiling the message down to sound bites and slogans to be 'liked' on Facebook works so well.

For sure. I may, and do, identify as black or mixed race but that doesn't mean I think of myself as black or mixed race. For a start, I only do it when talking racism or as a way to summarise what is a big part of my world experience in a way that society already understand it. However, even as I know what I am doing, I see the trap clearly and that trap is itself conflicting with my own personal sense of identity. That spills out to my political self: If my main objective in speaking out, describing my experiences and protesting against racism is to help reach a stage when the colour of my skin is neither here nor there in wider society then adopting the mythical term to describe myself is tantamount to making myself complicit in the perpetuation of the mythical concept.
Unfortunately, the world already works in Facebook terms, and that fact deters me 90% of the time. It's as if, denying the terms equates to rejecting or dismissing my experience.

 

[MochaSoul]

Yeah, like I said in #136 the specific links on here deal with things in a more rounded way, but I don't think boiling the message down to sound bites and slogans to be 'liked' on Facebook works so well.

For sure. I may, and do, identify as black or mixed race but that doesn't mean I think of myself as black or mixed race. For a start, I only do it when talking racism or as a way to summarise what is a big part of my world experience in a way that society already understand it. However, even as I know what I am doing, I see the trap clearly and that trap is itself conflicting with my own personal sense of identity. That spills out to my political self: If my main objective in speaking out, describing my experiences and protesting against racism is to help reach a stage when the colour of my skin is neither here nor there in wider society then adopting the mythical term to describe myself is tantamount to making myself complicit in the perpetuation of the mythical concept.
Unfortunately, the world already works in Facebook terms, and that fact deters me 90% of the time. It's as if, denying the terms equates to rejecting or dismissing my experience.

 

[MochaSoul]

Sounds like you're just dodging the question to me.

In fact, I've had to read your numerous shitty posts in which you've often quoted me and misinterpreted what I've had to say - so why are you so fucking precious about me quoting your own posts?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Unfortunately, the world already works in Facebook terms, and that fact deters me 90% of the time. It's as if, denying the terms equates to rejecting or dismissing my experience.

Yeah, good point. That's why it also matters what else you're saying, where you're coming from with it. There's no contradiction between questioning what race is and fully acknowledging that it is a real and experienced thing. Absurd to deny the latter, which I think is what 8ball's getting at.

 

[MochaSoul]

Oh dang! Any way to delete those repeated posts?

 

[winifred]

For sure. I may, and do, identify as black or mixed race but that doesn't mean I think of myself as black or mixed race. For a start, I only do it when talking racism or as a way to summarise what is a big part of my world experience in a way that society already understand it. However, even as I know what I am doing, I see the trap clearly and that trap is itself conflicting with my own personal sense of identity. That spills out to my political self: If my main objective in speaking out, describing my experiences and protesting against racism is to help reach a stage when the colour of my skin is neither here nor there in wider society then adopting the mythical term to describe myself is tantamount to making myself complicit in the perpetuation of the mythical concept.
Unfortunately, the world already works in Facebook terms, and that fact deters me 90% of the time. It's as if, denying the terms equates to rejecting or dismissing my experience.

But if it's essentially a bullshit concept to refer to people in terms of colour, and you already acknowledge that, how are we going to move past that if you go along with the rest of the 'Facebook generation', whilst also identifying yourself in terms of colour (i.e. race) when adopting the username 'MochaSoul'?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But if it's essentially a bullshit concept to refer to people in terms of colour, and you already acknowledge that, how are we going to move past that if you go along with the rest of the 'Facebook generation', whilst also identifying yourself in terms of colour (i.e. race) when adopting the username 'MochaSoul'?

Really? You're really saying that? MS can call herself and think about herself however she fucking well wants.

 

[winifred]

Yeah, good point. That's why it also matters what else you're saying, where you're coming from with it. There's no contradiction between questioning what race is and fully acknowledging that it is a real and experienced thing. Absurd to deny the latter, which I think is what 8ball's getting at.

Race is obviously a real thing in the sense that it has real life consequences for people of all perceived 'colours'. But, identifying oneself as being 'mocha' doesn't make things better in terms of perpetuating peoples identities in relation to colour.

Given the absurdity of it all re: using different colours as racial identifiers, it should really be a case of educating our young about the insidious and bogus nature of 'race'. The concept of 'race' should be assigned to a bygone era, where the term 'Black' should relate to the current struggle for equality and civil rights, rather than an assumed identity that signifies subordination and victimisation. Much in the same way as feminism is adopted as a movement for women to achieve equal rights.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

the term 'Black' should relate to the current struggle for equality and civil rights, rather than an assumed identity that signifies subordination and victimisation. .

What? That's in your head.

You seem to mean well, but you're floundering on this. Start by listening to what others say, others who have lived their lives being identified as 'black' in white-majority racist societies. And don't dismiss that.

 

[winifred]

Really? You're really saying that? MS can call herself and think about herself however she fucking well wants.

That's fair enough, but don't go on to say that you understand race as a mythical concept, only to then perpetuate it by labelling yourself as a particular colour. How are we supposed to get beyond this whole race as a legitimised concept bullshit, if people still choose to identify themselves in racial terms??

 

[winifred]

What? That's in your head.

You seem to mean well, but you're floundering on this. Start by listening to what others say, others who have lived their lives being identified as 'black' in white-majority racist societies. And don't dismiss that.

You need to live in the real world. It's not just so-called white people who are racist. There are lots of non-white people who are racist towards others. It's a fucking human condition, and shouldn't just be placed on the mantle of 'white' people. The only way to get around it is to get to people whilst they're young i.e. educating children to understand the fallacy of 'race', so that we don't continue to see people in terms of being black or white etc.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's fair enough, but don't go on to say that you understand race as a mythical concept, only to then perpetuate it by labelling yourself as a particular colour. How are we supposed to get beyond this whole race as a legitimised concept bullshit, if people still choose to identify themselves in racial terms??

People can identify in many different ways. Black might be one of many. This isn't about dividing people, not at all, just acknowledging the experiences of others.

Thing is, from your posts, I can tell that you're white, even though you haven't said.

 

[winifred]

People can identify in many different ways. Black might be one of many. This isn't about dividing people, not at all, just acknowledging the experiences of others.

Thing is, from your posts, I can tell that you're white, even though you haven't said.

I'm of Chinese heritage. I've been called 'yellow' in the past, and given that it's pretty much racist terminology - why should it be okay to identify people as being 'black' or 'white''?

In fact, why would 'white' people want to be labelled as such given that it's associated with supremacy and the subordination of others? And why would 'black' people want to be identified as such given that not all black people have experienced the kind of discrimination and racism that is often associated with this label?

It's so obvious to me that the terminology serves to perpetuate the so-called race myth, so one way of changing attitudes and perceptions of others based on their race, is to discard the racist terminology as a descriptor of people. Using the term Black to denote a political movement is more valid imo than to use it as a means of identification. After all, it was a term given to people effectively as a means of categorising their subordination and inferior status.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ok, I was wrong and apologise. I agree with you that it's something we need to get past. But we haven't got past it. We can't just pretend.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In fact, why would 'white' people want to be labelled as such given that it's associated with supremacy and the subordination of others? And why would 'black' people want to be identified as such given that not all black people have experienced the kind of discrimination and racism that is often associated with this label?

It's not about wanting to be identified as x or y, though is it? You are, whether you like it or not.

 

[winifred]

Ok, I was wrong and apologise. I agree with you that it's something we need to get past. But we haven't got past it. We can't just pretend.

Apology accepted. But the only way to get past it is to not only acknowledge that 'race' has a real life impact on people - but also to educate people about the fallacy of race, and to ditch the old racial terms that are based on the colour. After all, I am much more than my perceived colour or the stereotypical image of what a Chinese person should be. We are all unique individuals, regardless of our outward appearance - so why be limited to a colour?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But the only way to get past it is to not only acknowledge that 'race' has a real life impact on people - but also to educate people about the fallacy of race, and to ditch the old racial terms that are based on the colour.

Long-term yes, I agree with you. I'm actually optimistic about this, long-term. We are mixing a lot more in many parts of the world, and new generations will grow up with different ideas. It's a generational change, though. Old ideas will die out only as those that hold them die.

 

[winifred]

It's not about wanting to be identified as x or y, though is it? You are, whether you like it or not.

No, you are because that's what the perceived wisdom dictates. However, we have to move beyond this kind of naive/'common sense' thinking, and tell it as it really is rather than merely accepting these labels as if we don't have a say in the matter. That's obviously not going to happen any time soon, but it needs to change at some point, otherwise people will still be literally living a lie.

 

[MochaSoul]

But if it's essentially a bullshit concept to refer to people in terms of colour, and you already acknowledge that, how are we going to move past that if you go along with the rest of the 'Facebook generation', whilst also identifying yourself in terms of colour (i.e. race) when adopting the username 'MochaSoul'?

You know what, Winifred? One of the worsts of racism is the automatic assumption. It annoys, it irritates and it angers because... dismissive is its nature.
It infuriates me, more than anything else, because it tramples over everything most personal, most dear, most private. It runs over identity, over experiences, over talents, over relationships.
Congrats! Two assumptions there and one follows from the other : 1. that you got my nickname, perhaps even the whole of me, pegged based on the colour of my skin and 2. without which 1. wouldn't happen, that you had as much as the right to make that erroneous assumption about my nickname rather than ask me what it meant.
Those didn't just trample over... They stomped over something very precious to me. And for what? Cheap debating points. Pity we've not been talking religion or the same kind of cheap logic you've employed there, would have had the Soul in my nickname mean I'm religious or otherwise prone to religious ideas.
There is a delicious irony in that cheap shot of yours though when contextualised within that rose tinted idea of reality you persist on claiming to cling to! Vous avez les paroles, mais pas l'attitude!

I'd share the story behind my nickname but you are precisely the kind of person I'd never share with because it's a one of those for... safe spaces; the kind of thing you can really only share with those who, because when they look they actually *see* you, not just a bunch assumptions, earn your trust.

Had I the heavens' embroidered cloths,
Enwrought with golden and silver light,
The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
Of night and light and the half-light,
I would spread the cloths under your feet:
But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.

--W B Yeats

 

[8ball]

Unfortunately, the world already works in Facebook terms, and that fact deters me 90% of the time. It's as if, denying the terms equates to rejecting or dismissing my experience.

It does, and my point is that by throwing sound bites around that use one meaning of a word (race as applied to cultural categories), can allow conflation when other meanings can be imposed (race in the sense of heritage, ancestry and those physical differences that have been carried along with it).

I'm not saying anyone on this thread is doing that.

The fact that one meaning does not map well to the other should be a no-brainer, and is what some of the more quotable statements are really trying to point out, but until we either have better terms or are free from racists who will selectively quote and twist the meaning of reasonable words, I think calm, reasoned and detailed arguments are preferable to sloganeering.

 

[butchersapron]

You surely don't mean that the fields are sloganeering?

 

[winifred]

You know what, Winifred? One of the worsts of racism is the automatic assumption. It annoys, it irritates and it angers because... dismissive is its nature.

Are you saying that I've been 'racist', based on your assessment that I've been dismissive of your mixed heritage and your associated lived experience of it?

It infuriates me, more than anything else, because it tramples over everything most personal, most dear, most private. It runs over identity, over experiences, over talents, over relationships.

That wasn't my intention. I was pointing out the evident contradiction in acknowledging race as a myth, whilst also adopting an identity that is based on race.

Congrats! Two assumptions there and one follows from the other : 1. that you got my nickname, perhaps even the whole of me, pegged based on the colour of my skin and 2. without which 1. wouldn't happen, that you had as much as the right to make that erroneous assumption about my nickname rather than ask me what it meant.

I doubt you would have answered even if I had asked. You only have to look at my previous unanswered question to yourself, to establish that.

Those didn't just trample over... They stomped over something very precious to me. And for what? Cheap debating points. Pity we've not been talking religion or the same kind of cheap logic you've employed there, would have had the Soul in my nickname mean I'm religious or otherwise prone to religious ideas.
There is a delicious irony in that cheap shot of yours though when contextualised within that rose tinted idea of reality you persist on claiming to cling to! Vous avez les paroles, mais pas l'attitude!

There you go again - relating your own personal experience to the wider debate. As much as I acknowledge your lived experiences, it doesn't necessarily frame the discussion. And how dare you relate my discussion to "cheap debating points". The concept of race has had as much a detrimental effect on me as others of perceived colour. Therefore, I'm not going to shy away from calling things into question for fear of infringing on other peoples personal sensibilities.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Winifred...do you even understand that someone can describe themselves as a 'colour' and not be defining themselves racially/ethnically?

I don't think you do based on your posts here and assumptions about why mochasoul has called herself that. The difference between those things is important. The whole concept of 'race' in terms of the wider experiences and nuances of racism associates to and is based on biased value judgements...calling myself a caffelate isn't even if I were referring to my skin colour when calling myself that...If you can't show that you get that on any level there really is no point conversing with you.

 

[Pickman's model]

You know what, Winifred? One of the worsts of racism is the automatic assumption. It annoys, it irritates and it angers because... dismissive is its nature.
It infuriates me, more than anything else, because it tramples over everything most personal, most dear, most private. It runs over identity, over experiences, over talents, over relationships.
Congrats! Two assumptions there and one follows from the other : 1. that you got my nickname, perhaps even the whole of me, pegged based on the colour of my skin and 2. without which 1. wouldn't happen, that you had as much as the right to make that erroneous assumption about my nickname rather than ask me what it meant.
Those didn't just trample over... They stomped over something very precious to me. And for what? Cheap debating points. Pity we've not been talking religion or the same kind of cheap logic you've employed there, would have had the Soul in my nickname mean I'm religious or otherwise prone to religious ideas.
There is a delicious irony in that cheap shot of yours though when contextualised within that rose tinted idea of reality you persist on claiming to cling to! Vous avez les paroles, mais pas l'attitude!

I'd share the story behind my nickname but you are precisely the kind of person I'd never share with because it's a one of those for... safe spaces; the kind of thing you can really only share with those who, because when they look they actually *see* you, not just a bunch assumptions, earn your trust.

Had I the heavens' embroidered cloths,
Enwrought with golden and silver light,
The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
Of night and light and the half-light,
I would spread the cloths under your feet:
But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.

--W B Yeats

tbh i'd assumed coffee played some part in your username story.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Pretty silly to make out as if I'm singling you out/pairing the two of you together based on your mixed race credentials; (or that's how it seems from your post).

It's not silly at all as you are focusing on us.

'Mixed race credentials' ? Is that how you view these things? Most people would acknowledge experiences/perspectives. It's the way you frame these things that is annoying tbh. 'Credentials' like it's a competition or a profession.

I put the question to both of you because you've both been pretty much tag-teaming me in previous posts, re: my alleged misrepresentation of the Dolezal thread, and not getting why black people would be so incensed with a white person allegedly blacking up etc etc.

Tag team? There you go again.

Mochasoul and I have disgreed with you, along with other people I might add. There's no competition, no sides, no conspiracy. In fact, much of this is about the way you have described and framed this discussion and misrepresented the other thread. So instead of 'playing the victim' why not challenge yourself to understand why, despite your attempts at discussion here, you are not getting anywhere fast. It's not an alleged misrepresentation, it's here for all to read. Also see your title for this thread... how can I take you seriously when you couldn't resist the 'ahem, ooohhhhh dangerous me, dare we go there' addition.

I'm not making demands. I'm simply asking what yours and MochaSoul's opinion is on the question that I posed to you both. Is it too much to ask for you to give an opinion, or are you just wanting to ignore a perfectly reasonable question?

You are making demands; demanding we answer your questions despite the fact you refuse to acknowledge our actual issues with how you have framed this discussion, misrepresented the other thread and continue to frame our contributions.

You are openly and clearly making massive assumptions, positioning yourself as the 'voice of reason' as well as glossing over some very basic yet important objections people have about why and how you have set up this discussion.

 

[8ball]

You surely don't mean that the fields are sloganeering?

Probably not, but I think we're talking at cross-purposes again.

 

[winifred]

Long-term yes, I agree with you. I'm actually optimistic about this, long-term. We are mixing a lot more in many parts of the world, and new generations will grow up with different ideas. It's a generational change, though. Old ideas will die out only as those that hold them die.

I'm not as certain as yourself. The influence of the Facebook generation has already been mentioned within this thread, and as long as 'race' and all it's trappings get passed on from generation to generation - then I can't see that it will easily die out.

 

[winifred]

tbh i'd assumed coffee played some part in your username story.

"Rodney, you plonker!"

 

[Pickman's model]

"Rodney, you plonker!"

oh fuck off you depressing derivative dullard

 

[winifred]

Winifred...do you even understand that someone can describe themselves as a 'colour' and not be defining themselves racially/ethnically?

Yes, when they're talking about 'feeling blue' etc. but anything else smacks of racial undertones imo.

I don't think you do based on your posts here and assumptions about why mochasoul has called herself that. The difference between those things is important. The whole concept of 'race' in terms of the wider experiences and nuances of racism associates to and is based on biased value judgements...

So are you saying that having variations on identification through colour i.e. 'mocha', points to the subtle nuances to be found within race and its associated aspects?

calling myself a caffelate isn't even if I were referring to my skin colour when calling myself that...If you can't show that you get that on any level there really is no point conversing with you.

I get that there are these additional labels. Shit, I even used to refer to myself as being like a 'banana' at times i.e. yellow on the outside and white on the inside - but then I'd bought into the whole colour identification bullshit from a young age.

I even used to refer to myself as being 'Oriental', but then I grew to realise that even that had a racist undertone in its historical associations with colonialism and imperialism. That's why I don't think it's so hard to get away from using racial terminology, because it's all to do with educating people. Schools should have race education (or something along those lines) within their curriculum to teach kids about the history of race and how that's led to the kind of racial tensions we have at the moment. There should also be an emphasis on identifying people through their geographical heritage, rather than labelling groups from different cultures and ethnicities within the one racial label.