9/11 military tapes released - Pentagon lied to the 9/11 commission

[fela fan]

You claimed that "they" worked together to "invent UFOs" as part of a "plan" to "conveniently hide the various bullshit stinkings."

Could you be a little more specific as to who 'they' are please, and elaborate on how UFOs relate to the collapse of WTC7 and describe in detail which "elements of the US population" worked together to hatch this most curious plot?

Notwithstanding my post's tone of conjecture, 'they' refers to elements of the US establishment who conspire to keep and extend their power, in the process committing various crimes against humans. Often one reads about them as the 'military industrial' complex, you may see them referred to, in current times, 'neo-cons', sometimes just straigtforwardly as 'politicians'.

Whatever, if you reckon there aren't various people in the american 'establishment' (the word i find most suitable, most often, for 'they') plotting, planning, and acting their way through their lives in order to increase both their pockets and power, then you'd be entirely naive.

As for the WTC, and indeed the whole scenario that day on 9/11, make the connection yourself. The reason the term 'conspiracy theory' exists in life is a simple one. Conspiracies are the practical manifestation of what those in power do in their jobs in order to hold onto and extend that power. The common people, those not in the establishment, who do not know what is actually going on, due to having it hidden from them, are therefore only able to start with the theory.

And as you ought to know, theory and practice are inextricably linked. You cannot have one without the other.

 

[fela fan]

My 'proof' is in the well documented, first-hand, expert analysis of the bloke who designed the towers and the man who quite probably knows more about them than any other person alive.

Where's yours?

Well bloody hell man, you've just confirmed and spelled out exactly why your evidence is so lightweight and flimsy.

Has it ever occurred to you that people say things for certain reasons? That just because a person can claim the epithet 'expert' that he might not be lying or twisting or spinning? That he might have a hidden agenda?

He said it, he's an expert/qualified therefore it's true, therefore it's evidence.

Look everybody, look how easy evidence is!!!!

 

[fela fan]

Er, and which bit was I responding to?

Sorry mate, but you've now ...

Mate??

 

[fela fan]

Seriously, why the fuck are these loonies allowed on here? And second, why do people argue with them through about 20 pages?

Sorry, could you let the forum know who these 'loonies' are exactly?

Just so we can be clear like.

 

[fela fan]

Please note, I'm not saying that I'm skeptical in anyway about it, merely that it's a bit of an amusing and daft mistake that they forgot to even think about it.

anyway sorry if I've dragged th

 

[fela fan]

Yes they did, and all your arm waving is not going to change the fact.

LESLIE ROBERTSON: We had designed the project for the impact of the, our largest aeroplane of its time, the, the Boeing 707.That is to take this jet aeroplane, run it into the building, destroy a lot of structure and still have it stand up.

Which part of that statement is unambiguous?

All of it because it does not back up editor's fixed ideas about the events of that day in september.

Not only does he find some other bit of the text to provide as 'evidence' (and that is extremely dodgy since if you consider a plane, you might find it quite possible that plane would have some fuel in it), but he then presents it as evidence, just because the man said so. He's an expert, he said it, it's true.

As for them considering a lost plane in the fog, they never considered an enemy act of deliberately flying the plane into the building? No cold war, no international terrorism???? Just planes lost in the mist?

Ah well, we must be barking up the wrong tree mate. Maybe we're just barking.

 

[Crispy]

Did everybody miss BTL's post about kinetic energy, or what?

 

[Loki]

 

[editor]

Which part of that statement is unambiguous?

I can only guess you're in some sort of denial where you simply ignore the bits that don;t fit your half-arsed theory:

The Boeing 707 that was considered in the design of the towers was estimated to have a gross weight of 263,000 pounds and a flight speed of 180 mph as it approached an airport; the Boeing 767- 200ER aircraft that were used to attack the towers had an estimated gross weight of 274,000 pounds and flight speeds of 470 to 590 mph upon impact.”

 

[editor]

Did everybody miss BTL's post about kinetic energy, or what?

I certainly didn't miss it, but the loons aren't interested in science or reality.

Seeing as there's no hope of any rational debate here, I fear that this is another 9/11 thread headed for the dumper.

 

[kyser_soze]

On considerations of fuel, and engineers predicting 'what could happen' in building design.

The Millenium Bridge was engineered and computer tested by Ove Arup, possibly the most prestigious engineering practice in the world at the moment. With computer simulations and countless man years of bridge building design experience they still missed the vibration-effect that made the bridge wobble, so why is it suddenly suspicious that the designers of the WTC didn't actively consider the posisbility of fuel from the plane?

So we've gone from a reasonable discussion about the demolition possibility, to invisible planes and now UFOs...fucks sake...

Oh, and who's to say this wasn't a SAUDI government conspiracy - OBL has even closer ties to them then the US, they're economy has boomed since the hike in oil prices, which was handy cos the Saudi govt was facing financial difficulties bought on by years of low oil prices...what's top say it wasn't them? Maybe this is a long term thing to destablise the US, remove it's influence and leave them free-er to trade with China and other countries...or whatever. The possibilities are endless - fuck's sake, for all anyone knows China or Russia could have been involved; both have a massive strategic interest in oil and resources, both (Russia certainly has been fairly open about it's desires wrt control of natural resource markets)...the only difference is that neither of them had a group that published it's goals on the internet, since that seems to be the primary link that people are making between 9/11 and PNAC.

The US isn't the only country in the world with strategic interests - post-9/11 has seen the US internationally isolated on a huge number of issues. Can anyone say that this is not in the interests of China, Russia or India?

 

[editor]

As for them considering a lost plane in the fog, they never considered an enemy act of deliberately flying the plane into the building? No cold war, no international terrorism???? Just planes lost in the mist?

Ah, look! It's fela's amazing hindsight in action again!

Perhaps you might point me in the direction of any superskyscraper from that era that was specifically designed to take the full impact of a fully loaded modern passenger plane intentionally slamming into its structure at extreme high speed in a terrorist attack, please?

 

[kyser_soze]

As for them considering a lost plane in the fog, they never considered an enemy act of deliberately flying the plane into the building? No cold war, no international terrorism???? Just planes lost in the mist?

The Cold War was about nukes fela - there was NO domestic NLC activity in the US until the late 80s really, with the start of the anti-logging stuff. The US tended to grow it's own crazies without having to import them from overseas or annoy people. So no, I don't think at the time anyone would have thought 'Yeah! Hijacking a plane and flying it into a skyscraper! Great idea' - geneally during the 70s plane hijackers either blew them up in the sky, or got them to fly to some backwater where they either escaped or were blown up. Probably they thought that was enough of a message, or like the designers of the building, didn't have access to your amazing hindsight, or maybe they simply lacked the imagination.

 

[editor]

The Cold War was about nukes fela - there was NO domestic NLC activity in the US until the late 80s really, with the start of the anti-logging stuff.

<waits for hindsight-powered fela to return insisting that he would have built the towers to withstand a nuclear attack too>

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings/911/king911.htm


Posted again for the nutters.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Did everybody miss BTL's post about kinetic energy, or what?

Evidently. According to one link the slower of the two planes were flying at 490mph, around 2.5x the speed, which is 6.25 times the KE of the planned 707 hitting.

Planes do not land with large fuel loads often, it's uneconomical to fly with excess mass. But hell the heaviest a 707 can get is only 330,000lbs, that's not a 30% increase in KE compared to a 525% increase.

 

[editor]

But hell the heaviest a 707 can get is only 330,000lbs, that's not a 30% increase in KE compared to a 525% increase.

If only fela fan has designed the towers! They would have been Concorde-proof!

 

[WouldBe]

Regarding the fuel, it's a liquid. It has a habit of vapourising and forming droplets when it hits things like the aircraft fuselage on the way out. There is no definite mass to take into account, therefore it's extremely difficult to predict what happens when all these different sized droplets hit various bits of the building.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

If only fela fan has designed the towers! They would have been Concorde-proof!

But probably unuseable, due to being full of bullshit

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I agree, he explained perfectly well how the towers were desinged to withstand the impact of the largest airliner at the time

The Titanic was designed not to sink, and the space shuttle not to blow up...

 

[tarannau]

But probably unuseable, due to being full of bullshit

You never be able to find your way around either. The berk would have filled the place with mirrors, with loudspeakers repeatedly wittering about 'filters' in a particularly pompous and irrelevant fashion.

 

[WouldBe]

But this isnt the case in the seismograph.

The Palisades seismic data recorded a 2.1 magnitude earthquake during the 10-second collapse of the South Tower at 9:59:04 and a 2.3 quake during the 8-second collapse of the North Tower at 10:28:31

So the south tower takes approx 50% longer than freefall speed to collapse so nowhere near 'virtually freefall speed'. Clearly the eminent Steve Jones can't work out how to use a stop watch let alone anything more complicated.

 

[Techno303]

You never be able to find your way around either. The berk would have filled the place with mirrors, with loudspeakers repeatedly wittering about 'filters' in a particularly pompous and irrelevant fashion.

There would be no room for the thermite/thermate.

 

[kyser_soze]

But there would probably be plenty of marmite...

 

[Techno303]

But there would probably be plenty of marmite...

Boom-tish!

 

[Crispy]

http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings/911/king911.htm


Posted again for the nutters.

Required reading.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Required reading.

From that link:

"I want to add here that I think that the publication of books and the existence of websites all devoted to the counter-orthodoxies – which effectively accuse the US Government in general, and range of individuals in particular, of mass murder of fellow-US citizens – are a tribute to Western principles of democracy and freedom of expression. By the same token I am free, along with others, to publish works that challenge the counter-orthodoxies. I want to make it absolutely clear however that I do not support the US Government in its response to 9/11. I simply believe that the approach taken by those who accuse it of complicity in the attacks is misguided. I believe that these accusations will founder on a lack of evidence, and that the same energy could be used to work, using democratic principles, to show where Bush and his colleagues have really gone wrong. I believe this to be their blanket refusal to learn about Islamic culture, history, and tradition; in particular their failure to credit radical Islamic movements their valuable and popular socialist and welfare dimensions; and their attempt to impose Western values on Islamic countries by force"


Couldn't put it any better than that really.

 

[Techno303]

From that link:

"I want to add here that I think that the publication of books and the existence of websites all devoted to the counter-orthodoxies – which effectively accuse the US Government in general, and range of individuals in particular, of mass murder of fellow-US citizens – are a tribute to Western principles of democracy and freedom of expression. By the same token I am free, along with others, to publish works that challenge the counter-orthodoxies. I want to make it absolutely clear however that I do not support the US Government in its response to 9/11. I simply believe that the approach taken by those who accuse it of complicity in the attacks is misguided. I believe that these accusations will founder on a lack of evidence, and that the same energy could be used to work, using democratic principles, to show where Bush and his colleagues have really gone wrong. I believe this to be their blanket refusal to learn about Islamic culture, history, and tradition; in particular their failure to credit radical Islamic movements their valuable and popular socialist and welfare dimensions; and their attempt to impose Western values on Islamic countries by force"


Couldn't put it any better than that really.

<waits for another load of conceited bilge to issue forth from Fela>

<adjusts mirrors>

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

And again:

"Good Science is a matter of slow and careful investigation of data, with the continual awareness that one’s own emotional commitment to one result or another tends to make it overwhelmingly tempting to jump to conclusions ahead of the due process....Looking at the writings of those challenging the official line, I find little evidence of good science in this sense: it seems that the individuals promoting these ideas are already persuaded of their version of the ‘truth’ "


Sound familliar?

 

[WouldBe]

I find little evidence of good science in this sense:

Shame a lot of the conspirasheep claim to be scientists.