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21st century fascism

I suggest you do that then.

Well off the top of my head the Front National is a great example. In the late 70's and 80's they were borderline libertarian, calling for the reduction of the welfare state and very hostile to unions, it really was very pro-market and anticipated neo-liberalism very succesfully. That was the case even up until the 2002 election, although they'd for the sake of pragmatism watered it down by then. Today it's much more left wing economically, definitely more so after the 2008 crash, but only in a very narrow nationalist way, calling for protectionism and tariffs and stuff. On Welfare and trade union rights and other supposedly left wing things they're still very hostile. it's really quite your typical pragmatic fash stuff, they'll shift to whatever direction they feel suits them best. The protectionist stuff is just about the only thing that might give neo-liberalism a pain in the arse, but I'd doubt whether or not they could viably do it if they ever got in power.

Then there's Vlaams Belang in Belgium, which became sort of the model for the neo-liberal, libertarian right in europe in a lot of ways, just like Wilders Freedom Party. These are the main two. There's the British Freedom Party, which is seemingly influenced by that lot in it's outlook. And of course UKIP, not arguably fascist or owt but far-right neo-liberalism . The Danish People's Party is also quite influenced by that neo-liberalism, although in a nonspecific sort of way, especially considering it's in the context of scandinavian politics where defending welfare for example isn't seen as heretically left-wing like it is over here. Then there's the Austrian Freedom Party, Jorg Haider's lot, who campaign on a basis of privatisation and ending the welfare state. Then there's LAOS in Greece, which was the populist UKIP equivalent that had managed to replace Golden Dawn as the major far-right party, distancing itself from neo-nazism and preaching fiscal conservatism. Then they joined the cabinet, started making cuts, and got wiped out. There's actually quite a few and you're being deliberately obtuse if you refuse to acknowledge it. The thing is now, post-2008 crash, a lot of these parties who were once well into all this stuff are going to about turn quickly, but that's the beauty of being a fash you get to change your position on these things.

Then you've got the far-right in the US, which I think does have an influence on the thinking and the methods of the far-right in Europe, which is a total synthesis between anti-islam cultural conservatism and neo-liberalism.
 
DB - anti-banker rhetoric is not unheard of from fascists!

Blatantly. It was more than that though, there was a conscious shift in her campaigning to incorporate some seemingly left-wing rhetoric into what she was doing, a recognition that by attacking UMP so hard they'd perhaps overlooked the working-class voters they assued would vote for them.
 
Who on earth said that they pose a threat to neo-liberalism? Where are you getting this stuff from?

Well you did, here for example


Absolutely mental - fascism's contemporary support comes from challenging neo-liberalism not embracing it. How have you managed to get it so upside down?

Now I suppose we could get into a 10 page argument about whether challenging neo-liberalism is the same thing as posing a threat to it, but I'd rather not.

Also, there's a slight but crucial difference to be made here. The source of their support may well ultimately derive from the failure of the neo-liberal consensus post-2008, and the unemployment and popular discontent with establishment politics it has led to, but do they advocate policies that actually challenge the fundamental tenets of neo-liberalism? Not in any serious way. Immigration reforms are a mild inconvenience, some degree of protectionism also, but that's hardly an existential challenge to neo-liberalism. Neo-libealism has done fine in the US despite all the protectionist elements that were in NAFTA, for example.

It doesn't change the fact that a lot of these parties were reconciled to neo-liberal capitalism in the 90's and 2000's prior to the big crash. The recent losses that Wilders Freedom Party have had in Holland can be explained by this to some extent. They bought into this consensus, as did the social democrats and greens and other distinct ideological groups, and now the consensus is collapsing it's changing all over again.

It's not a uniform picture either. Some fascist groups, like the NPD in Germany or Golden Dawn in Greece or even the BNP to an extent, have stuck to their 3rd position roots and not gone in for the neo-liberal stuff. Some of this is down to political tradition within those parties, some of it is down to economic and cultural factors within the countries where they campaign. But suggesting none of the new anti-muslim far right in Europe have anything to do with economic liberalism is demonstrably untrue.
 
Well off the top of my head the Front National is a great example. In the late 70's and 80's they were borderline libertarian, calling for the reduction of the welfare state and very hostile to unions, it really was very pro-market and anticipated neo-liberalism very succesfully. That was the case even up until the 2002 election, although they'd for the sake of pragmatism watered it down by then. Today it's much more left wing economically, definitely more so after the 2008 crash, but only in a very narrow nationalist way, calling for protectionism and tariffs and stuff. On Welfare and trade union rights and other supposedly left wing things they're still very hostile. it's really quite your typical pragmatic fash stuff, they'll shift to whatever direction they feel suits them best. The protectionist stuff is just about the only thing that might give neo-liberalism a pain in the arse, but I'd doubt whether or not they could viably do it if they ever got in power.

What is going on with your definitions of left wing and fascism?

I don't think protectionism and a managed economy should be described as 'left wing economics' even though there is an overlap in some sense, an overlap that enabled some barking libertarian right-wingers to claim that the Nazis were socialist but is unlikely to survive closer scrutiny. The left do not have a monopoly on ideas that go against unbridled markets.

And I don't think you should push the 'pragmatic fash stuff' too far. Of course they are still against unions, I really don't think we could call them fascists if they weren't.
 
What about my look at the growth and changing internal composition of the french right-bloc which you wafted away with oh i'm sure it'll be different next time? (and that you're relying on the french tories to sort out the far-right says it all) Politics eh?

Woah, analysis of something being a factor (the tactics of the centre right) doesn't mean looking to it or relying on it. But you were pointing to a trend, suggesting it's somehow irreversible when having tried and failed to win transfers from the FN and alientated the centrist liberals, Sarkozy's party might well reassess their tactics. Where have I said this is our only hope or anything vaguely similar?
This right bloc/left bloc dichotomy is very crude, and you could argue is just the sort of picture drawn by people who want the left bloc to triangulate rightwards.
 
An academic friend of mine told me that Terry Eagleton gets hundreds of death threats a day from all over the world for being a culturally marxist literary critic who is part of a conspiracy to destroy the white race, mainly because his name features on the wikipedia article for Cultural Marxism.
This is ironic btw as Eagleton has been careful to talk about the limits of culturalism, unlike a lot of the cultural studies/poststructuralist crowd.
 
Also, there's a slight but crucial difference to be made here. The source of their support may well ultimately derive from the failure of the neo-liberal consensus post-2008, and the unemployment and popular discontent with establishment politics it has led to, but do they advocate policies that actually challenge the fundamental tenets of neo-liberalism? Not in any serious way. Immigration reforms are a mild inconvenience, some degree of protectionism also, but that's hardly an existential challenge to neo-liberalism. Neo-libealism has done fine in the US despite all the protectionist elements that were in NAFTA, for example.

Again I think you are overstating things in a manner that downplays what fascism is all about. If they truly posed that little threat to neo-liberalism, then I'd seriously question whether they should be defined as fascists at all.

Nationalism, protectionism and immigration curbs are not trivial inconveniences to neo-liberalism, not if they lead to actual policies rather than simply dictating the flavour of rhetoric employed. The USA is not a good example on which to build your case, since immigration has been a huge factor in the growth of the US and focusing on protectionist elements within free trade agreements is silly because that stuff plays second fiddle to the fact a free trade agreement is being created in the first place.

Granted, if we look at countries such as South Korea in the post-war period, we might conclude that we've see authoritarian regimes with some fascistic attributes being able to play an important role in a global neo-liberal project, but I would be very hesitant to assume this means such phenomenon could be replicated elsewhere in a manner that poses no threat to neo-liberalism. I tend to assume that such phenomenon were only possible due to the time and the place, and that you couldn't replicate such a thing in the heartlands of neo-liberalism without seriously undermining what neo-liberalism is all about.

Perhaps some of these confusions arise because when fascists tone down their rhetoric or policies for pragmatic reasons, and have to share power with others, I find it somewhat difficult to see them as a functioning fascist force. As soon as fascism is watered down, it might be better to use different labels, since weak fascism is something of a contradiction.
 
Well you did, here for example




Now I suppose we could get into a 10 page argument about whether challenging neo-liberalism is the same thing as posing a threat to it, but I'd rather not.

Well, it isn't the same, is it? Using the presence/reality of a political and economic hegemony as a rallying point for a certain type of opinion isn't the same as formulating ideas for the overthrowing that hegemony.
 
Yeh, ideologically "loaded" euphemistic terms in political discourse are slippery and treacherous things. eg, In the 1930's anyone seeing the term "rootless cosmopolitans" understood immediately that it was the Jews that were being talked about - in a derogatory fashion. Now TODAY in political discourse it is admittedly possible to see the old South African Apartheid system as being in favour of a particular version of "multiculturalism" in terms of encouraging and relishing the maintenance of separate cultural groups with different rights and duties - with the WHITE community totally in the position of POWER of course. In this usage of the term "multiculturalism" it IS possible to see the BNP as "multiculturalists" , in that they do downplay SOCIAL CLASS in favour of an ideology based on "race" or in their particular racist terms "culture".

But IS this the commonly understood meaning that the term "multicultruralism" has for 95% of the UK population, or indeed the BNP and its supporters , TODAY ? NO IT ISN'T. For most people "multiculturalism" simply means a society where many ethnically and religiously distinct communities live and coexist - relatively peacefully. People can be in favour or opposed to this of course, but for most people that is what the term means. So the BNP of course routinely OPPOSES and denounces "Multicultural" Britain - it doesn't support it - and as a politically "loaded" euphemistic "buzzword" if you go round white working class estates and say you are opposed to "multiculturalism" this is ALWAYS taken as "code" a "euphemism" for "We are opposed to the existence or rights or perceived privileges of Muslims, Blacks, Hindus - as against the perceived second class status of White working class people" THAT IS WHAT IT IS TAKEN AS MEANING BY MOST PEOPLE. Now the IWCA say "But we take the time and care to ensure that "on the doorstep" and in our literature our particular "take" on "multiculturalism" is well understood - ie, we wish to emphasise the centrality of working class identity as against the divisions in the class based on ethnicity, religion, culture" DREAM ON guys ! the IWCA's special "multicultural" position is a concession to the deepseated hostility to ethnic and religious minorities within the White Working class - dressed up in a "specialist" alternative understanding of "multiculturalism" which will pass most of the target audience by. Such a convenient position to hold if you don't nowadays want to confront the deepseated racism of the White Working Class or the rising tide of street fascism.

I'm about as far from being an IWCA fanboy as it's possible to get but I think you're misrepresenting them there. And all this stuff in capital letters doesn't do you any favours, makes your (often considered) posts look like the ravings of a conspiracy theorist, which in turn leads to them not being taken seriously.

You're also on dodgy ground talking about the "deepseated racism" of the white working class. First of all because I don't think it's true, but secondly because if we assume that any opposition to immigration etc. is motivated by racism we're making a big mistake. A lot of these people really aren't racist and all you'll do is devalue the term, making real racists appear more acceptable. In my experience it's often the result of genuine grievances about homes, jobs and so on - they're just coming to what I believe are the wrong conclusions when working out what caused these problems.

Don't take this the wrong way, it's not intended as a dig and although I disagree on this I often agree with a lot of what you post.

Not had time to read the whole thread yet so apologies if this has already been said.
 
You're also on dodgy ground talking about the "deepseated racism" of the white working class. First of all because I don't think it's true, but secondly because if we assume that any opposition to immigration etc. is motivated by racism we're making a big mistake. A lot of these people really aren't racist and all you'll do is devalue the term, making real racists appear more acceptable. In my experience it's often the result of genuine grievances about homes, jobs and so on - they're just coming to what I believe are the wrong conclusions when working out what caused these problems.

I'd agree that broad assumptions are dangerous in that regard. However my own experiences prevent me from making the opposite mistake, of trying to disconnect the two phenomenon to the extent that you attempt to here.

What I witnessed over many years was a large quantity of casual racism, that only occasionally mingled with genuine grievances about homes etc. More often it was to be found in the context of the piss-taking banter that filled much of the day, and often featured equivalent sentiments in regards to sexuality and sexism, or more trivially football teams. I tend to see much of this as simply being a part of a social structure that featured forms of communication, judgement, bonding and attempts to maintain a certain level of conformity, or simply have a laugh at someone else's expense, in a manner that is bound to seem rather harsh and brutal to someone like me who grew up with teachers for parents. I feel that if I try to make too many observations or judgements about such things myself, I will end up saying as much about me and my class as I will about any working class realities. I do not intend for example to make the mistake of thinking that because a form of brutal thinking is expressed in a particularly crude manner by some members of a certain class, that the other classes are any less brutal, its just as likely to mean the other classes simply have a fancier way of dressing this stuff up, shooting their venom through a different orifice. Various newspapers can demonstrate this point to a certain extent at least.

What I did find interesting from my own experiences was that in this group, those who were most likely to sometimes attach their racist utterances to political/economic issues, is that lengthier conversations with them on a 1-to-1 basis tended to indicate that they really were fascists, in terms of a range of beliefs that went well beyond issues of race. Im only talking about a handful of people here, a small fraction of the broader group I was talking about in previous paragraph, and Im not exactly sure what I learnt, but it was an experience. These particular people were not at that time motivated enough to actually do anything beyond rant, but if a time came where their own ability to work and provide for their family was impeded, I would think it very hard to get them to join anything other than the fascist side of things.

I suppose the key really is whether in times of crisis that latter group are able to bring along a good number of the broader group which I've described, perhaps almost by default by way of the tight-knit brutal banter I mentioned. Its especially hard for me to make any assumptions about this since there were a lack of obvious left-wing voices at this workplace, and there wasn't a union or many dramatic work issues which could have revealed the extent of such feelings.
 
And I mention the above here not because I think its given me anything like an accurate view of a whole class, but because I think for whatever reasons I stumbled into a vipers den, just one strand of a particular working class community that for whatever reasons are currently at a point where they could easily become fascist tools. It may simply be the personality and circles that one of the owners moved in that concentrated such types in one place.
 
I'm about as far from being an IWCA fanboy as it's possible to get but I think you're misrepresenting them there. And all this stuff in capital letters doesn't do you any favours, makes your (often considered) posts look like the ravings of a conspiracy theorist, which in turn leads to them not being taken seriously.

You're also on dodgy ground talking about the "deepseated racism" of the white working class. First of all because I don't think it's true, but secondly because if we assume that any opposition to immigration etc. is motivated by racism we're making a big mistake. A lot of these people really aren't racist and all you'll do is devalue the term, making real racists appear more acceptable. In my experience it's often the result of genuine grievances about homes, jobs and so on - they're just coming to what I believe are the wrong conclusions when working out what caused these problems.

Don't take this the wrong way, it's not intended as a dig and although I disagree on this I often agree with a lot of what you post.

Not had time to read the whole thread yet so apologies if this has already been said.

Sorry you think the capital letters show distinct indications of "green- ink" lunacy, SpineyNorman -- I just thought it brought out the key points I was trying to make from the surrounding verbiage.

Now I agree that the considerable growth in mixed-ethnicity families - particularly between the indigenous white and afro Caribbean communities over the last 30 years does seem to have reduced that particular area of white working class racism somewhat, at least polls suggest so. Not so in relation to much more recent immigrant communities of Muslim/hindu religious persuasions. Now if you don't think there is a deepseated racism at a range of levels very widely present in the white working class, particularly the unorganised, poorer, white working class, then you haven't been out and about where I've been periodically in recent years on big white working class housing estates - and the very significant racist/white grievance inspired votes going to the BNP over the last 15 years would be inexplicable.

Opposition to immigration is, most of the time, based on racism - ie, a hostility to incomers with different cultures and practices - linked to an entire ideology of "urban myth" about the preferential treatment these incomers get at the expense of the poorer white working class. I think socialists do the cause no good by underestimating the scale of this issue amongst white workers, and the power of this belief system to attract them in large numbers to fascism as opposed to socialism as the crisis deepens.

You think I am misrepresenting the IWCA's "take" on "multiculturalism" . But you surely agree it is a peculiar divergeance from mainstream understanding of the term - and that for them to choose to describe the BNP as "multiculturalist" on the basis of this particular "take" is misleading to say the least ? I admit that I find it hard to categorise the political position of the IWCA in any definitive way. I certainly don't see it as part of the broad Left in even a general sense in any way at all though. How "charitable" you feel about the IWCA's "positions" on "multiculturalism", "law and Order" "the uselessness of the Left and Socialism", the constant "bigging up" of the claimed unstoppable rise of the Far Right and the dynamism of Far Right ideas as opposed to socialist ones, depends in the end I suppose on the political direction you seeing them going in future.(as individuals probably as the IWCA is pretty much dead). My own hostility to IWCA positions , as I understand them I concede, is more in sorrow than anger I assure you.

There you go, not a word in BLOCK CAPITALS, anywhere..... bugger !
 
I'd agree that broad assumptions are dangerous in that regard. However my own experiences prevent me from making the opposite mistake, of trying to disconnect the two phenomenon to the extent that you attempt to here.

I'm certainly not trying to suggest it doesn't exist - we still live in a racist society and so it would be strange if some, maybe even most, working class people hadn't internalised some of that. That's a far cry from "deepseated racism" though.

What I witnessed over many years was a large quantity of casual racism, that only occasionally mingled with genuine grievances about homes etc. More often it was to be found in the context of the piss-taking banter that filled much of the day, and often featured equivalent sentiments in regards to sexuality and sexism, or more trivially football teams. I tend to see much of this as simply being a part of a social structure that featured forms of communication, judgement, bonding and attempts to maintain a certain level of conformity, or simply have a laugh at someone else's expense, in a manner that is bound to seem rather harsh and brutal to someone like me who grew up with teachers for parents. I feel that if I try to make too many observations or judgements about such things myself, I will end up saying as much about me and my class as I will about any working class realities. I do not intend for example to make the mistake of thinking that because a form of brutal thinking is expressed in a particularly crude manner by some members of a certain class, that the other classes are any less brutal, its just as likely to mean the other classes simply have a fancier way of dressing this stuff up, shooting their venom through a different orifice. Various newspapers can demonstrate this point to a certain extent at least.

I'd pretty much agree with all of that - and I speak as someone who is from those communities, I'm a product of it. When I was a kid I guess I had some "soft" racist views. I made racist jokes, called the corner shop the "paki shop" and used gay and girl as an insult. But the thing is I never considered myself a racist and in a way I was sort of right - not that this in any way excuses it but I would never have treated someone differently because of the colour of their skin, their sexuality or anything else - the only time I ever did anything like this was when I used to call the bloke who ran the shop "rag head". I justified it to myself by telling myself that even his own wife and kids called him that. These days I'm sure he must have hated it and they probably only did this to sort of conform, to not be seen to be kicking up a stink. I'm obviously ashamed of all that now but the thing is I would have been devastated to find that my "jokes" and so on upset people or made anyone's life differently. I mean, people tell jokes about paedophilia and although they're sick it doesn't mean they're excusing the actual act. My soft racism would never have translated into political or ideological racism and on the few occasions when I heard people racially abusing people I always made a point of standing up to them.

I guess the point I'm trying to make, in a very cack handed way, is that it's not really a good idea to read too much in to racist "banter" because often that's all it is. That's not to say it shouldn't be challenged or that it's acceptable, but in a political sense it's an entirely different beast from ideological racism.

What I did find interesting from my own experiences was that in this group, those who were most likely to sometimes attach their racist utterances to political/economic issues, is that lengthier conversations with them on a 1-to-1 basis tended to indicate that they really were fascists, in terms of a range of beliefs that went well beyond issues of race. Im only talking about a handful of people here, a small fraction of the broader group I was talking about in previous paragraph, and Im not exactly sure what I learnt, but it was an experience. These particular people were not at that time motivated enough to actually do anything beyond rant, but if a time came where their own ability to work and provide for their family was impeded, I would think it very hard to get them to join anything other than the fascist side of things.

Obviously I'm not an arbiter for what the working class does and doesn't think, but as someone who has lived nearly all his life on council estates and moved about a hell of a lot, and who has worked in factories on maintenance for a lot of it (meaning that I got to know pretty much every one in the factories I worked at) that's a long way away from what I've experienced. Obviously there were racist, quasi-fascist and fascist pricks on all those estates, but no more than you'd find in a middle class subburb. What I found was that when there was apparently racist sentiment, it was about poles nicking jobs, certain ethnic groups getting what appeared to be economic resources allocated to them purely because they were of said group (which ties in with the IWCA analysis of multiculturalism by the way), immigrants getting all the housing, pushing down wages and so on, and large infuxes of refugees - on the latter one, when it came down to it, it was about loads of people coming in and using up already scarce resources. These are all, at root, class issues.

I suppose the key really is whether in times of crisis that latter group are able to bring along a good number of the broader group which I've described, perhaps almost by default by way of the tight-knit brutal banter I mentioned. Its especially hard for me to make any assumptions about this since there were a lack of obvious left-wing voices at this workplace, and there wasn't a union or many dramatic work issues which could have revealed the extent of such feelings.

I suspect that your workplace was more the exception than the rule to be completely honest.
 
Sorry you think the capital letters show distinct indications of "green- ink" lunacy, SpineyNorman -- I just thought it brought out the key points I was trying to make from the surrounding verbiage.

Now I agree that the considerable growth in mixed-ethnicity families - particularly between the indigenous white and afro Caribbean communities over the last 30 years does seem to have reduced that particular area of white working class racism somewhat, at least polls suggest so. Not so in relation to much more recent immigrant communities of Muslim/hindu religious persuasions. Now if you don't think there is a deepseated racism at a range of levels very widely present in the white working class, particularly the unorganised, poorer, white working class, then you haven't been out and about where I've been periodically in recent years on big white working class housing estates - and the very significant racist/white grievance inspired votes going to the BNP over the last 15 years would be inexplicable.

Does living on them count as "going out and about" on them? And it's interesting that where there is racism - and I certainly won't deny its existence - it's directed towards the "communities" you mention - from the reading I've done they're precisely the groups whose "community leaders" have benefited the most from the kind of liberal top down state multiculturalism the IWCA talk about (I won't say the whole "communities" have because I don't think it's true, working class Muslims and Hindus haven't benefited at all from it). And so this phenomenon is entirely predictable and I would suggest more the consequences of the policies you criticise the IWCA for opposing rather than any kind of "deep seated racism".

Opposition to immigration is, most of the time, based on racism - ie, a hostility to incomers with different cultures and practices - linked to an entire ideology of "urban myth" about the preferential treatment these incomers get at the expense of the poorer white working class. I think socialists do the cause no good by underestimating the scale of this issue amongst white workers, and the power of this belief system to attract them in large numbers to fascism as opposed to socialism as the crisis deepens.

Who said anything about underestimating the threat of facsism? Certainly not me. But your suggestion that opposition to immigration is "most of the time" based on racism is utter bollocks. Unless it just happens that the 12 or so estates I've lived on in the last 15 years are somehow unique I know this to be the case.

You think I am misrepresenting the IWCA's "take" on "multiculturalism" . But you surely agree it is a peculiar divergeance from mainstream understanding of the term - and that for them to choose to describe the BNP as "multiculturalist" on the basis of this particular "take" is misleading to say the least ? I admit that I find it hard to categorise the political position of the IWCA in any definitive way. I certainly don't see it as part of the broad Left in even a general sense in any way at all though. How "charitable" you feel about the IWCA's "positions" on "multiculturalism", "law and Order" "the uselessness of the Left and Socialism", the constant "bigging up" of the claimed unstoppable rise of the Far Right and the dynamism of Far Right ideas as opposed to socialist ones, depends in the end I suppose on the political direction you seeing them going in future.(as individuals probably as the IWCA is pretty much dead). My own hostility to IWCA positions , as I understand them I concede, is more in sorrow than anger I assure you.

I have my own criticisms of the IWCA which I won't go in to here. But we're talking about their position on multiculturalism, nothing else. What I've got from talking to people in the IWCA is that they tend to base their definitions on "actually existing" versions of various concepts, rather than idealised versions. So when they criticise socialists they're talking about the existing far left groups - and I think they're right in many ways (and I say this as a member of one of those groups, albeit the least guilty one on this issue - though I would say that lol). When they criticise socialism they criticise post-war social democracy and Stalinism, and when they criticise multiculturalism they criticise the communalist competitive culturalism that actually exists in Britain.

And so when you say they disagree with the mainstream definition, what do you mean by the mainstream? Middle class intelectuals? The political class? The (almost entirely irrelevant) far left? Thing is the IWCA isn't trying to appeal to those people. They're appealing to the actual working class. And I have to say that their definitons of all these things are far closer to those I grew up with and experienced, and closer to what most people I know have experienced, of these things.

Most IWCA people I've spoken to would still subscribe to what I would call socialist views, they're still students of Marx. And if what you mean by multiculturalism is some idealised melting pot where everyone lives side by side in harmony I'm sure they'd agree with that too. Just not the terminology. And since these terms have been irreparably discredited in the eyes of many working class people maybe they're right - after all, surely the content is more important than the name we label it with?



There you go, not a word in BLOCK CAPITALS, anywhere..... bugger !

:D
 
I suspect that your workplace was more the exception than the rule to be completely honest.

Yes, I tried to acknowledge (perhaps badly) this and several of the other points you've made in my posts, so you won't find me disagreeing with what you've said there. And thanks for taking the time to reply at length.

To be fair I probably stretched my point about fascists a bit too much towards the end, since circumstances have thankfully not arisen where the true fascist leanings of that handful of people can actually be demonstrated or disproven by their actions. Lets just say they didn't give me reasons to be optimistic, despite me putting out multiple feelers to see if there was any trace of left-wing or non-authoritarian belief that might send them in a different direction if push ever came to shove.

Either way the whole experience felt lopsided to the extent that I could tell I was only seeing one particular strand of something that must be more complex in reality, or else the realities on the street and in politics would already be far uglier than is actually the case. To even begin to believe that what I saw was the full picture of these attitudes and the working class, would be to risk running off in the direction that plays straight into the hands of neo-liberalism, or the middle-classes, or elites. Issues of race etc should not be allowed to obscure the legitimate grievances of people, and yet so often when we talk about this stuff we can get bogged down in just that sort of shit, and the discussion never quite seems to make it very far into the territory of actually solving the underlying grievances or the racism.

I certainly want to resist as much as possible judging people who have not often been offered a wide and glorious selection of choices and opportunities in their lives. And I would probably be a fool to think that I am well placed to choose what lovely options should be offered to them on a menu, or that I should consider myself worthy to offer them advice about which dish to go for.

Having said all of that I personally find that in order not to lose sight of humanity and what actually matters, and what unites us all as much as divides us, it does me no harm to spend a portion of my time not looking at things in terms of class at all.
 
Who said anything about underestimating the threat of facsism? Certainly not me. But your suggestion that opposition to immigration is "most of the time" based on racism is utter bollocks. Unless it just happens that the 12 or so estates I've lived on in the last 15 years are somehow unique I know this to be the case.

Quite.

This bit: 'very widely present in the white working class, particularly the unorganised, poorer, white working class, then you haven't been out and about where I've been periodically in recent years on big white working class housing estates.'

Is 'out and about' just visiting, as part of a political group, counter-productive in its activity, with no real connection or roots, or actually living on them?

This generalised group of which I am a part, and also live on an estate, but Mrs Hurrah isn't white, and is also a 'part.' Your partner is black, Spiney, is she not?

I've certainly known racism of the casual/ignorant kind, and the definitely convinced, unswerving and deliberate 'ideological' variety as it were. I used to work with one such man. Also the contradictory 'Yeah, but you're our [insert racial epithet here], not one of those [insert racial epithet here] type crap as well. But it's by no means confined to the poorer members of the working class. Expressed in different ways, sure, and people joining (wrongly) different dots together.
 
Yes, I tried to acknowledge (perhaps badly) this and several of the other points you've made in my posts, so you won't find me disagreeing with what you've said there. And thanks for taking the time to reply at length.

To be fair I probably stretched my point about fascists a bit too much towards the end, since circumstances have thankfully not arisen where the true fascist leanings of that handful of people can actually be demonstrated or disproven by their actions. Lets just say they didn't give me reasons to be optimistic, despite me putting out multiple feelers to see if there was any trace of left-wing or non-authoritarian belief that might send them in a different direction if push ever came to shove.

Either way the whole experience felt lopsided to the extent that I could tell I was only seeing one particular strand of something that must be more complex in reality, or else the realities on the street and in politics would already be far uglier than is actually the case. To even begin to believe that what I saw was the full picture of these attitudes and the working class, would be to risk running off in the direction that plays straight into the hands of neo-liberalism, or the middle-classes, or elites. Issues of race etc should not be allowed to obscure the legitimate grievances of people, and yet so often when we talk about this stuff we can get bogged down in just that sort of shit, and the discussion never quite seems to make it very far into the territory of actually solving the underlying grievances or the racism.

I certainly want to resist as much as possible judging people who have not often been offered a wide and glorious selection of choices and opportunities in their lives. And I would probably be a fool to think that I am well placed to choose what lovely options should be offered to them on a menu, or that I should consider myself worthy to offer them advice about which dish to go for.

Having said all of that I personally find that in order not to lose sight of humanity and what actually matters, and what unites us all as much as divides us, it does me no harm to spend a portion of my time not looking at things in terms of class at all.

somewhat elongated writing style there Elbows which doesn't really highlight the points that you wish to make
 
Quite.

This bit: 'very widely present in the white working class, particularly the unorganised, poorer, white working class, then you haven't been out and about where I've been periodically in recent years on big white working class housing estates.'

Is 'out and about' just visiting, as part of a political group, counter-productive in its activity, with no real connection or roots, or actually living on them?

This generalised group of which I am a part, and also live on an estate, but Mrs Hurrah isn't white, and is also a 'part.' Your partner is black, Spiney, is she not?

Ex-partner, we split up about a week ago, nothing to do with the colour of her skin though :D (It's ok though, I met another lass at the chip shop on Friday :D) But yes, she's part of the same community as me.
 
Back on topic - Re Greece, it certainly seems to be the case that the reactionary drift of the "mainstream" right is a greater immediate threat than Golden Dawn. Was a bit shocked to read this description of the New Democracy ('scuse the c&p):
Makis Voridis… For those who are not familiar with the Greek political scene, he is a person whose best man is Jean-Marie LePen himself (yes, the French ultra-nationalist extreme right-wing nut), who was roaming the streets of Athens in 1985 yielding impromptu axes and, in collaboration with the riot police, was attacking left-leaning people. He is now a prominent and very highly regarded (by the pro-bailout corporate media) member of pro-bailout party Nea Dimokratia (New Democracy). Before he joined New “Democracy”, he was (along with the other “gem” Adonis Georgiadis) a prominent member of extreme-right wing and antisemite party LA.O.S. (Popular Orthodox Rally), whose leader, Georgios Karatzaferis often flirted with the violent neonazi “Golden Dawn” group. And before his sting with LA.O.S., Mr. Voridis was the leader of a fringe extreme-right wing racist party.
These are the people that are supported by the pro-bailout commentators here. I rest my case.
 
somewhat elongated writing style there Elbows which doesn't really highlight the points that you wish to make

Yes I'm afraid I often lapse into waffle. After spending far too long on the forums yesterday I shall be rationing my words for a bit.
 
Few people have mentioned Italy and no-one has mentioned GianFranco Fini (Responsable for ordering and masterminding the Genoa G8 Diaz Raid and ordering the torture of many international activists at bolzaneto). Fini has slipped from public view but he is still considered the heir apparent for many of the right wing in Italy.

Italy is due to have its main elections in May of 2013. There is a very uneasy truce between the left and right wing governments which i think cannot last for long. For the moment, the fascists in italy are biding their time and re-organising themselves for the coming struggle of the 21st century. They are prepared to see a left wing government like Monti's, fail. Combined with a worsening public order and terrorism threat, it is to their advantage for the italian public to see the left wing technical government fail to solve the 2 trillion euro banking crisis in italy.

Fini is a pure nationalist. He is not interested in the EU and the Euro although he might pretend to care so he can get money out of the international markets. In reality, Bossi and himself want to see the EU fail and for italy to exit.

Talking about the convicted Diaz police who are his leutenants, they control the interior ministry and various branches of the state police. Fini and the Diaz police can always call upon legia nord and forza nouva to act as a right wing black bloc. All of us from Diaz have a saying. It doesn't matter who the interior minister is...the facists always control it and the police.

Well, on june 15 in central Rome, The final and ultimate verdict will be rendered at the supreme court of appeal. Diaz is the only thing that is dangerous to Fini, his party and his powerful police friends. He still has a promise to keep to which he made 24 hours before Diaz. This promise was to cover his men to do whatever they liked to the protesters and they would not face conviction.

If Fini and the Diaz police lose and 15 commanders go to jail and 10 others are banned from office, it will be a victory for us and everyone in italy and europe. fini and the fascists will melt away after losing their powerbase of control. for the first time since the second world war, they will truely not run the Interior ministry which has always been the route, combined with right wing civil unrest, to gaining power countless times.

As you, the reader have now come to understand...Diaz matters not only as a question of justice for the victims, but it is a question of whether italy wants to rid itself of such dangerous policemen who think its their right to pervert democracy and take italy down a false road. The Diaz verdict also matters to every european as well. If we lose on June 15th, Europe loses big time...

go figure.....
 
Yes. It is unelected and left wing, Fedayn. The italian president chose Monti after Berlusconi resigned last year.
 
Yes. It is unelected and left wing, Fedayn. The italian president chose Monti after Berlusconi resigned last year.

I know who he is and how he got there and that Napolitano chose him. He's as left wing as Napolitano frankly. We clearly have a diffreent view of what is 'left-wing'.
 
Fedayn, all i know is that Monti and his interior minister are moving quite fast to settle Diaz and Bolzaneto. A right wing government would never consider settling the Genoa cases. Berlusconi never did. Also Monti understands the public order issues if diaz is not sorted.

I always find it amazing that left wing people protest against Monti. All they are doing is making it easier for the fascists to come to power even quicker...
 
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