17 year old private school student cleared of friend's murder

[Athos]

And that institutionalised racism and class bias in court can easily persuade a jury against what actually did happen.

That I agree with.

And I just don't see how self-defence works as a defence when there is no corroboration of the victim having a knife, just the defendants word and that of his mate in a changed statement who chose not to give evidence.

Effectively, notwithstanding a lack of corroboration, the jury couldn't be sure he wasn't telling the truth. How they reached that decision may well reflect some of their own biases.

 

[Athos]

I’m not talking about the police acting differently. I’m talking about the CPS acting differently, maybe employing a competent barrister.

I've no idea about the competence of the prosecution barrister in this case (and I suspect nobody on this forum does).

 

[Spymaster]

I’m not talking about the police acting differently. I’m talking about the CPS acting differently, maybe employing a competent barrister.

Some lawyers are better than others but unless you’re trying to argue that the CPS deliberately use shit prosecutors for rich white kids, but break out their superstars for poor black ones, this is irrelevant.

Neither the police nor the CPS have evidently shown any bias here.

 

[planetgeli]

Some lawyers are better than others but unless you’re trying to argue that the CPS deliberately use shit prosecutors for rich white kids, but break out their superstars for poor black ones, this is irrelevant.
.

I never said anything like that but thanks for implying I might have.

 

[Spymaster]

I never said anything like that but thanks for implying I might have.

I never said you did. Just pointing out that what you did say was irrelevant wrt this case!

 

[Treacle Toes]

The CPS is known for having issues in dealing with ineffectual employees.

Underperforming lawyers were assigned fraud and attempted murder trials while others were given large redundancy payments despite having been disciplined.

One former manager claims that she was instructed to give failing lawyers sensitive cases, including rape trials, to protect the body from equal pay claims.

The CPS’s dedicated sexual violence division — which in 2015 was dismissed by one lawyer as a “complete mess” — is under scrutiny after two rape retrials ended without convictions last month.

As the prosecuting agency for England and Wales, the CPS decides which cases to bring to court. It employs more than 2,200 lawyers, including 242 crown advocates who prosecute the most serious cases.

In total, 123 lawyers at the agency committed unspecified misconduct since 2012 but only 15 were dismissed. One senior prosecutor was given a redundancy payout despite bringing the CPS “into serious disrepute”, internal documents show.

Lyall Thompson, 45, performed so badly in an attempted murder trial that the judge wrote to the CPS to complain. Judge Anthony Morris warned that the “instruction of inadequate advocates creates difficulties. Are we to intervene to prevent miscarriages of justice . . . and run the risk of appearing to support the prosecution, or are we to remain silent and allow possible miscarriages of justice to occur?”

Lynne Townley, 48, Mr Thompson’s former manager, sued the CPS in 2016, alleging that she was told to instruct underperforming senior lawyers on complex cases to shield the agency from legal action by more junior colleagues, who might claim they were doing the same work for less money. The CPS denies this.

Bob Neill MP, chairman of the justice select committee, said that the allegations “confirmed a growing set of suspicions about CPS work”. “If people aren’t good enough then they should be managed out or trained up,” he said, adding that he feared some CPS lawyers were failing to disclose evidence properly.

Failed CPS lawyers are paid off with public money

For example.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Neither the police nor the CPS have evidently shown any bias here.

The CPS have been subject to massive spending cuts like other public services over the past decade. I'd imagine that retaining 'superstar lawyers' given the wages they offer is a difficult task.

Further CPS cuts impossible as workload grows, says new boss

 

[Treacle Toes]

The justice system is so crippled by Tory cuts that rich criminals will soon be able to buy their freedom in court, barristers warn.

The Crown Prosecution Service can ill afford to pay top QCs to prosecute criminals after its budget was cut 37% since 2010, the Criminal Bar Association said.

But defence lawyers typically get around £200 per hour, or up to £400 an hour for a top lawyer on a big case.

It means those who can afford them are more likely to walk free, said CBA chairman Chris Henley QC.

He said he gets “daily emails” from barristers who are now unwilling to prosecute.

Prosecution fees were slashed in 2012 by around a third, the CBA says, meaning that fees in 2019 are lower than they were in 2006.

“Prosecutors may not take on the case because the fees are too low, and those who may take it on might not have the best experience.

Rich criminals can 'buy freedom' because CPS can no longer afford top lawyers

 

[Treacle Toes]

Context is everything.

 

[Spymaster]

The CPS have been subject to massive spending cuts like other public services over the past decade. I'd imagine that retaining 'superstar lawyers' given the wages they offer is a difficult task.

Further CPS cuts impossible as workload grows, says new boss

Indeed. Clearly not a case of bias though.

 

[Treacle Toes]

inequality
/ɪnɪˈkwɒlɪti/

noun

1. difference in size, degree, circumstances, etc.; lack of equality.
   "social inequality"
   synonyms: imbalance, inequity, unevenness, disproportion, inconsistency, variation, variability;
   divergence, polarity, disparity, discrepancy, dissimilarity, difference, contrast, distinction, differential;
   bias, prejudice, discrimination, unfairness, unfair treatment
   "a society without social inequality"

 

[Spymaster]

inequality
/ɪnɪˈkwɒlɪti/

noun

1. difference in size, degree, circumstances, etc.; lack of equality.
   "social inequality"
   synonyms: imbalance, inequity, unevenness, disproportion, inconsistency, variation, variability;
   divergence, polarity, disparity, discrepancy, dissimilarity, difference, contrast, distinction, differential;
   bias, prejudice, discrimination, unfairness, unfair treatment
   "a society without social inequality"

So none of that then. Cheers.

If there’s been any bias it’s on the part of the jury. Not the police or the CPS who have done everything in their powers to do these scrotes for murder.

 

[Pickman's model]

Rich criminals can 'buy freedom' because CPS can no longer afford top lawyers

tbh i've seen cps lawyers in action for almost 30 years and i have never been that impressed with their quality

 

[Spymaster]

tbh i've seen cps lawyers in action for almost 30 years and i have never been that impressed with their quality

I’ve had occasion to be thoroughly grateful for their incompetence.

 

[kenny g]

More than happy for the state to not be shovelling cash in the direction of lawyers but the result of the current way the criminal bar operates which in some chambers is akin to the public school fagging system of old with junior barristers worked near to death on low pay whilst silks feed their pulsating livers is at breaking point. The net result is a defendant with enough cash can quite easily bombard a prosecution. I am not saying that happened in this case. My suspicion is there was a combination of jury prejudice and evidential problems. The judge in his summing up clearly told the jury they may be out for a long time so I suspect no one thought it would be taken as so clear cut.

 

[Treacle Toes]

More than happy for the state to not be shovelling cash in the direction of lawyers but the result of the current way the criminal bar operates which in some chambers is akin to the public school fagging system of old with junior barristers worked near to death on low pay whilst silks feed their pulsating livers is at breaking point. The net result is a defendant with enough cash can quite easily bombard a prosecution. I am not saying that happened in this case. My suspicion is there was a combination of jury prejudice and evidential problems. The judge in his summing up clearly told the jury they may be out for a long time so I suspect no one thought it would be taken as so clear cut.

I'd say there is a really unpalatable element to this discussion where on the one hand you have people agreeing that the CPS can't afford to pay the most experienced people, that the system is institutionally racist and classist and that these things undoubtably create inequality...on the other hand, yep they are inept and have been to my pleasure/profit but nah don't believe that's true in this case, they did all they could, no inherent bias.

That doesn't even make sense. An inequitable system and as a result being denied access to fair/equal representation creates bias. But..

I'm all right...etc. etc.

 

[Spymaster]

I'd say there is a really unpalatable element to this discussion where on the one hand you have people agreeing that the CPS can't afford to pay the most experienced people, that the system is institutionally racist and classist and that these things undoubtably create inequality...on the other hand, yep they are inept and have been to my pleasure/profit but nah don't believe that's true in this case, they did all they could, no inherent bias.

That doesn't even make sense. An inequitable system and as a result being denied access to fair/equal representation creates bias. But..

I'm all right...etc. etc.

Or, you could be spouting a load of old shit again.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Or, you could be spouting a load of old shit again.

Would poor, black kids robbing a drug dealer and stabbing someone to death result in ‘gangster fantasy acquittals?’

 

[Spymaster]

Would poor, black kids robbing a drug dealer and stabbing someone to death result in ‘gangster fantasy acquittals?’

No idea. Quite possibly not. The 'gangster fantasy' stuff was what his brief argued.

 

[eoin_k]

If I was looking to address structural inequality in the criminal justice system, pumping more money into the CPS would be lower down my agenda than the cuts to legal aid, but each to their own.

 

[Treacle Toes]

If I was looking to address structural inequality in the criminal justice system, pumping more money into the CPS would be lower down my agenda than the cuts to legal aid, but each to their own.

Has someone here actually argued that either is preferrable?

You seem to at least agree that structural inequality exists in the CJS. Phew.

 

[eoin_k]

Has someone here actually argued that either is preferrable?

You seem to at least agree that structural inequality exists in the CJS. Phew.

Of course it,but the CPS being able to afford to instruct silks is often part of the problem.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Of course it,but the CPS being able to afford to instruct silks is often part of the problem.

So no one here argued the point you implied they did. Gotcha!

Structual inequality exists. In this case that inequality is evident. On-going scrutiny of the cps is that cases like this are being lost because of inexperience/resource deficit/etc. but that let's just imagine that isn't relevant here. Righto.

 

[eoin_k]

So no one here argued the point you implied they did. Gotcha!

Structual inequality exists. In this case that inequality is evident. On-going scrutiny of the cps is that cases like this are being lost because of inexperience/resource deficit/etc. but that let's just imagine that isn't relevant here. Righto.

If only the police had more money too, then maybe they wouldn't be so racist.

 

[Serge Forward]

No idea. Quite possibly not. The 'gangster fantasy' stuff was what his brief argued.

So didn't the brief just argue a variant of "affluenza"?

 

[LiamO]

I’ve had occasion to be thoroughly grateful for their incompetence.

1000 likes

 

[Spymaster]

So didn't the brief just argue a variant of "affluenza"?

I guess so but he also argued self-defence.

 

[kenny g]

It is still possible to agree there are problems with the criminal justice system without agreeing that in this case they were the cause of the acquital.

 

[Spymaster]

It is still possible to agree there are problems with the criminal justice system without agreeing that in this case they were the cause of the acquital.

Of course it's not! Why do that when there’s a big fat juicy race card to play?

 

[Treacle Toes]

It is still possible to agree there are problems with the criminal justice system without agreeing that in this case they were the cause of the acquital.

Is it possible that the problems that you agree exist in the CJS somehow magically have had no impact on this particular case? Despite the fact the family have now spoken out about how they were treated and what the issues were...nope, somehow they are wrong and those problems we all agree exist within the CJS just didn't have an influence on this case?