Refusal of work and the immigration debate

durruti02 · Dec 16, 2006

i am suprised that none of the anarchos who are keen on the 'refusal' of work' thing have said this yet

but a key factor in this debate is the levels of refusal amongst w/c people. as neo liberalism/thacherism has pushed wages and conditions down so an increasing and large number of people have been pushed out of the labour market or into refusal of work. the consequences of this in a finite labour market would have been to push up wages again and challenge profitability .. (and probably to encourage more firms to export jobs ( it is interesting that leftists who oppose quite rightly the export of jobs do not oppose employers bringing in cheap labour))

it is in response to this that we have the import of cheap labour thanks to the neolibs of the EU and New Lab

indeed we often hear people saying, uncritically, that immigrants do the jobs that indiginous do not want to do .. why people why?

Gmart · Dec 16, 2006

There will ALWAYS be low skilled work which EVERYONE can do. Thus the wages of this work will inevitably be low. Leading to the incentive to enskill oneself.

The immigrants are prepared to climb over barbed wire for the opportunity to work like this for a decade or so, then to return to their country to enjoy the fruits of their labour there. If they can make a living for themselves in the UK then even better, the additional money created will drive the economy and make jobs for more people to live.

Just legislating against this will just make it worse. There will always be a competitive advantage to using lower paid workers and driving them into the black market is useless.

Thus we need to make the Black Market as small as possible and bring them into the economy with all the rights that workers deserve rather than forcing them into an unregulated hell.

The same goes for prostitutes, drugs etc. It is NOT the governments place to moralise, it should empower the workers and the customers.

durruti02 · Dec 16, 2006

Gmarthews said:
There will ALWAYS be low skilled work which EVERYONE can do. Thus the wages of this work will inevitably be low. Leading to the incentive to enskill oneself.

The immigrants are prepared to climb over barbed wire for the opportunity to work like this for a decade or so, then to return to their country to enjoy the fruits of their labour there. If they can make a living for themselves in the UK then even better, the additional money created will drive the economy and make jobs for more people to live.

Just legislating against this will just make it worse. There will always be a competitive advantage to using lower paid workers and driving them into the black market is useless.

Thus we need to make the Black Market as small as possible and bring them into the economy with all the rights that workers deserve rather than forcing them into an unregulated hell.

The same goes for prostitutes, drugs etc. It is NOT the governments place to moralise, it should empower the workers and the customers.

sorry mate but you have totally ignored the OP ...

Gmart · Dec 16, 2006

Sorry mate, i read it and its title is 'Refusal of work and the immigration debate'

Thus my reply about immigration and work would seem exactly on message.

ViolentPanda · Dec 16, 2006

Gmarthews said:
Sorry mate, i read it and its title is 'Refusal of work and the immigration debate'

Thus my reply about immigration and work would seem exactly on message.

Yeah, but you didn't say what durruti02 wanted you to say, damn you!

durruti02 · Dec 18, 2006

Gmarthews said:
Sorry mate, i read it and its title is 'Refusal of work and the immigration debate'

Thus my reply about immigration and work would seem exactly on message.

not suprsisingly the meat of it is in the OP NOT the title! :rolleyes:

the thread is about why british workers are not doing the jobs that the poles etc are doing .. see? so it is not about what the poles want or deserve at all .. and yes you are on message .. blairs message

and VP grow up

.. you have talked i believe about immigrants doing jobs that locals 'won't do ( apologies if you have not .. it a common thing from lefties

)

so i have started a thread on it .. no opinion? no?? just a sneer???

durruti02 · Dec 18, 2006

so heres an article from wales to inform the debate ..

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100...ers-take-jobs-welsh-don-t-want-name_page.html

treelover · Dec 18, 2006

its becoming increasingly clear that the govt, the CBI, etc will use 'hard working industrious migrant workers' as a stick to bash the 'lazy feckless unemployed/disabled' IMo, very dangerous tactics which could backfire in the future, and the open borders lot would seem to agree with them, weird times.

trashpony · Dec 18, 2006

two things:

- minimum wage has been introduced in the last few years. Has it affected unemployment stats? Not as far as I can see.

- you imply the labour has arrived as a result of people's refusal to do crappy low-paid jobs. It hasn't.

There are always going to be crappy jobs. Even in a socialist utopia, someone has to clean the toilets.

Fruitloop · Dec 18, 2006

What is it with you people and toilets? I really don't think Marx got to the end of writing Das Kapital and then suddenly smacked himself in the forehead crying 'Damn it, I forgot about the shitters!'.

treelover · Dec 18, 2006

er, that wasn't my point, my point is the govt will flag up 'M/W work, so why can't indigenous workers do these jobs?

as Hutton has below

Mr Hutton will argue that there are 600,000 vacancies across Britain - many of which are in areas with large numbers of benefit claimants. "Economic migration from the EU has only served to highlight this issue. If workers from Poland can take advantage of these vacancies in our major cities, why can't our own people do so as well?" he will ask.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianpolitics/story/0,,1974214,00.html

trashpony · Dec 18, 2006

Fruitloop said:
What is it with you people and toilets? I really don't think Marx got to the end of writing Das Kapital and then suddenly smacked himself in the forehead crying 'Damn it, I forgot about the shitters!'.

I think it's probably because I've cleaned toilets for a living - on several different occasions.

trashpony · Dec 18, 2006

treelover said:
er, that wasn't my point, my point is the govt will flag up 'M/W work, so why can't indigenous workers do these jobs?

as Hutton has below

Sorry - wasn't replying to you, was replying to OP

dash · Dec 18, 2006

trashpony said:
I think it's probably because I've cleaned toilets for a living - on several different occasions.

Yeah Fruitloop, we're not all like you.

Some of us are grafters, workers.

treelover · Dec 18, 2006

Madeline Bunting on CIF in the Guardian has (surprise, not!) done yet another article about migrant workers/illegal workers/asylum seekers. However, what is interesting is how many Right Wingers, cheerleaders for capitalism, etc are supporting her, slagging off indigenous workers (as Bunting implicitly is doing) and championing migrant workers emphasising how it is allowing us to compete with China, etc.

Forget about legal immigration...

Illegal immigration more than pays for the benefits of asylym seekers.

Most illegals are young 20 something men, highly ambitious who push the economy forward.

Why is UK plc doing so well in an increasingly globalised and competitive world?

Think B.R.I.C. Brazil, Russia, India,,, China. We're holding our own so far so good. Eire aren't the only tigers.

Offensive? Unsuitable? Email us

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1974424,00.html

treelover · Dec 18, 2006

I think this comment says a lot

this article seems to ignore the fact that most of the rum end of britain lives like this, payday to payday, in fear of slipping below the waves and not resurfacing, not having time off because its unpaid, I know this because its how im forced to live, its a terrible shame in this case that this fellow cant come to england and live and work here illegally and get a kidney operation, if he was legal would that mean that it was ok, claiming benefits which would be as much as he now earns, getting his housing paid for, honestly MB do you ever venture out of your ivory tower?..... unless im going crazy the underclass is getting bigger, and at the bottom there really is no incentive to earn a living, because you would be a fiver better off a week on the benefits..... i do feel for the illegals and their plight, but im actually a little bit more bothered about legal citizens in exactly the same boat, because these people are not a minority..... they suffer in silence

Fruitloop · Dec 18, 2006

dash said:
Yeah Fruitloop, we're not all like you.

Some of us are grafters, workers.

I must say I'm overjoyed at this image of myself as some louche character that lives the life of Riley whilst all around me cheerful proles work their freezing fingers to the bone. I may have to buy some kind of smoking jacket. :cool:

treelover · Dec 18, 2006

another pleasant comment, what strange bedfellows the left has now..

think we should throw out all the bone idle, foul mouthed,and benefit claiming young british males who are presently polluting our towns and cities in large numbers. They will spend most of their lives drifting in and out of criminality, with no attempt to make any form of contribution to society, apart from taking large amounts of taxpayers money.
At least this guy wants to work.

Ms Ordinary · Dec 18, 2006

Gmarthews said:
There will ALWAYS be low skilled work which EVERYONE can do. Thus the wages of this work will inevitably be low. Leading to the incentive to enskill oneself.

Irrelevant note: I misread that as Leading to the incentive to kill oneself. :eek:

I also stood glazed eyed in Morrisons the other day, thinking "who on earth would want to market antisemitic cough lozenges"

cutandsplice · Dec 18, 2006

Fruitloop said:
I must say I'm overjoyed at this image of myself as some louche character that lives the life of Riley whilst all around me cheerful proles work their freezing fingers to the bone. I may have to buy some kind of smoking jacket.

I'm sure there's plenty of people here who would set fire to your current jacket to save you the expense of buying a new one.

Gmart · Dec 18, 2006

Maybe the wages that the poles get go further in Poland and so they thus have more of an incentive to work? Work for ten years then live in luxery in Poland?

Maybe the British worker does not see the advantage, and reckons that he will be looked after by the state anyway.

Maybe the education system in the UK is such that it doesn't adequately prepare the workers for the needs of the market?

Maybe he sees no reason to work for peanuts which don't buy enough to live here?

Maybe the British worker has had it too good?

Maybe there is so little chance of learning the skills needed that the workers have given up.

The Black Hand · Dec 18, 2006

treelover said:
its becoming increasingly clear that the govt, the CBI, etc will use 'hard working industrious migrant workers' as a stick to bash the 'lazy feckless unemployed/disabled' IMo, very dangerous tactics which could backfire in the future, and the open borders lot would seem to agree with them, weird times.

I don't think Open Borders 'agree with bosses' in the way you have stated...

The Black Hand · Dec 18, 2006

treelover said:
er, that wasn't my point, my point is the govt will flag up 'M/W work, so why can't indigenous workers do these jobs?

as Hutton has below

Why should indigenous workers do those crap jobs that pay crappy wages? It's the free market, supply and demand :eek:

Once you are out of the Labour market as is officially understood, you value autonomy, dignity and the refusal of work.

What this really is about is Hutton putting down a marker to be a party leader cos he has taken the logic of the market economy to its conclusion - and that is the end of universal benefits/welfare state/NHS, and the creation of the MARKET state... And the result will be barbarianism as some old sage said.

dash · Dec 19, 2006

Fruitloop said:
I may have to buy some kind of smoking jacket.

You could become a raconteur or even a boulevardier (not sure what that is, but it sounds neat).

Tom A · Dec 19, 2006

Attica said:
Why should indigenous workers do those crap jobs that pay crappy wages?

More to the point, why should immigrants do said jobs either?

Once you are out of the Labour market as is officially understood, you value autonomy, dignity and the refusal of work.

Well after I finished my first degree I was gung-ho about getting "a job", but then shortly was told by the local JobCentre that I was best going on Incapacity Benefit, and then ended up on a crappy "Fit for Work" scheme, which lead to an even crappier placement at the local council, where in both cases they were oblivious to my unique set of cricumstances. As a result of all this plus other BS that happened during that time I ended up deciding to sod getting a job and focus on getting my life back together properly, as I was continously moving from one crisis to the next.

What this really is about is Hutton putting down a marker to be a party leader cos he has taken the logic of the market economy to its conclusion - and that is the end of universal benefits/welfare state/NHS, and the creation of the MARKET state... And the result will be barbarianism as some old sage said.

I have the following interpretation of market logic:

Mentally ill people who are a danger to society? Don't waste money on trying to treat them, much cheaper to give them a leathal injection!

Your kid going to be born with cystic fibrosis? Why should we care, he 'aint going to live long, or ever be fit enough to contribute to the economy, so you can pay for his upkeep, or we'll just make you abort him!

So we think that you aren't trying hard enough to get a job? Well there are forced labour camps for lazy brats like you!

There are other examples of the absolute heinousness of why would happen if the "market economy" was allowed to totally govern how we live and think.

Pigeon · Dec 19, 2006

treelover said:
Madeline Bunting on CIF in the Guardian has (surprise, not!) done yet another article about migrant workers/illegal workers/asylum seekers... slagging off indigenous workers (as Bunting implicitly is doing) and championing migrant workers emphasising how it is allowing us to compete with China, etc.

Interesting that you should (mis)interpret what she's "implicitly" doing while disregarding the explicit reference to "how employers can exploit irregular migrants and how this has a knock-on effect on other low-paid workers." :rolleyes:

durruti02 · Dec 19, 2006

Gmarthews said:
Maybe the wages that the poles get go further in Poland and so they thus have more of an incentive to work? Work for ten years then live in luxery in Poland?

Maybe the British worker does not see the advantage, and reckons that he will be looked after by the state anyway.

Maybe the education system in the UK is such that it doesn't adequately prepare the workers for the needs of the market?

Maybe he sees no reason to work for peanuts which don't buy enough to live here?

Maybe the British worker has had it too good?

Maybe there is so little chance of learning the skills needed that the workers have given up.

he he he " maybe the british worker has had it too good"

god its great to see the bigotry in the new left

the rest of hwt you say is about right .. so asl yourself why ... simplely immigration is purely for chepa labour .. the new slavery

durruti02 · Dec 19, 2006

treelover said:
Madeline Bunting on CIF in the Guardian has (surprise, not!) done yet another article about migrant workers/illegal workers/asylum seekers. However, what is interesting is how many Right Wingers, cheerleaders for capitalism, etc are supporting her, slagging off indigenous workers (as Bunting implicitly is doing) and championing migrant workers emphasising how it is allowing us to compete with China, etc.

although she also titles her essay 'the new slavery' .. and that is what migrant labour is .. not some freedom of movment but slavery .. it will NJOT be reformed because it is DESIGNED to be cheasp labour .. if it was not cheap it would not exist ..

""The sheer extent of this institutionalised dehumanisation makes a mockery of any pretensions to decency. While politicians fret and pontificate about policies on social cohesion and integration, this is the real question at the heart of those issues: the army of cheap labour on which our comfortable lifestyles depend.""
thats the middle classes hes talking about

Pigeon · Dec 19, 2006

treelover said:
another pleasant comment, what strange bedfellows the left has now..

Oddly, you choose not to draw attention to the comment calling this Iraqi lad with a failing kidney a parasite.

Strange bedfellows ain't the fucking half of it. :rolleyes:

Pigeon · Dec 19, 2006

durruti02 said:
although she also titles her essay 'the new slavery' .. and that is what migrant labour is .. not some freedom of movment but slavery .. it will NJOT be reformed because it is DESIGNED to be cheasp labour ..

Indeed it is. And the primary mechanism in that design is immigration control.

Refusal of work and the immigration debate

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